The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Climate Change, and the first question is from Ken Skates.

Biodiversity

Ken Skates AC: 1. What action is the Welsh Government taking to support biodiversity in Wales? OQ59771

Julie James AC: Thank you, Ken. The Welsh Government is supporting a range of initiatives to tackle biodiversity loss, including scaling up delivery of our nature networks and national peatland action programmes, and completing the marine protected area network. These will help tackle the nature emergency and contribute to delivering our 30x30 target.

Ken Skates AC: Minister, I'm very grateful for your answer. In supporting the move to green energy, we must obviously be mindful of unintended consequences with regard to biodiversity. In my view, hydrogen offers great potential to deliver reliable and clean energy with minimum impact on biodiversity. Now, other forms of energy generation may become dependent on the creation of vast battery storage facilities, and nearly 400 sites across the UK are either operational or in development. And there have been numerous explosions around the world at these sites, including near Clwyd South in Liverpool. Now, environmentalists and scientists have raised concerns about noise, chemicals and catastrophic consequences of exploding battery sites, which can result in toxic clouds and poisonous water run-off. Minister, could you outline the Welsh Government's position regarding the development of lithium-ion battery farms—the impact on biodiversity? Also, has the Welsh Government determined whether the disposal of end-of-life solar panels and electric car batteries will be conducted in Wales, as there are obvious fears that the world's poorest nations will end up having toxic materials dumped on them?

Julie James AC: Yes, thank you, Ken. As we all know, climate change is a major driver of biodiversity loss and, so, clean energy will be absolutely vital in reaching net zero and tackling both the climate and nature emergencies. We're very committed to the transition to a clean energy system, powered by renewable energy, very much including hydrogen as part of that mix. But it also does require storage and flexibility and we will need to ensure the safe disposal of end-of-life technology, including things like batteries and solar panels, exactly due to the harm that they could pose to the environment, as you've outlined. So, we've got the Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment Regulations 2013 in place, which introduced a system of producer responsibility that requires producers of electrical and electronic equipment to take responsibility for arranging the separate collection, treatment and recycling of electrical products. The regulations have a specific category for solar panels to ensure that the financing of the collection and recycling of domestic and non-domestic waste solar panels is applied fairly. That means that waste producers can contact the producer or seller of their panels, who will arrange the take-back of the items free of charge to recycle them.
We’ve also got the Waste Batteries and Accumulators Regulations 2009, which introduced a similar system of producer responsibility. Again, they must provide a free-of-charge take-back service from the end user. And in partnership with the other Governments in the UK, the Welsh Government are currently reviewing the Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment Regulations and the battery regulations and the producer responsibility requirements, including considering measures to further promote the wider recovery and reuse of end-of-life electrical products as well as improving recycling of old battery chemistry types as part of the transition to a circular economy. Waste recycling and disposal facilities in the UK require an environmental permit to prevent harm to human health or the environment, and the conditions of the site permit are enforced by UK environmental regulators.
And then just to say, as well as that, Ken, that we’re very proud of our recycling performance, as you know, but amongst the things that we’re proud of is how much of that is reprocessed here in Wales. So, I think the point you make about not exporting the problem to countries where it’s less likely to be dealt with properly is a very good one. And amongst the ambitions of the Welsh Government are to recycle—well, we’re up to 80 per cent—up to 100 per cent, really, of everything we produce here and, actually, to be able to mine that old equipment for new resource as part of our circular economy effort. And I’m very pleased to say that we are attracting reprocessors, as they’re called, to Wales now who want to get hold of our recyclate, so this will be very much part of that mix.

James Evans MS: Minister, recent action by the Welsh Labour Government to ban humane cable restraints, and the recent consultation by Natural Resources Wales on the ban of, basically, shooting in Wales, will have serious harm on our conservation and biodiversity here in Wales. The humane cable restraint ban will stop the predator control of ground-nesting birds and, actually, a ban on shooting in Wales will actually stop the valuable work that our shoots have done to enhance biodiversity across Wales. So, I'd like to know, Minister, what impact assessments have the Welsh Government done about the issues that I've just talked about, about the damaging effect that that will have on biodiversity here in Wales?

Julie James AC: Well, as the Member knows, that was part of the agriculture Bill that we were very pleased to pass in the Senedd recently, and the impact assessments were very much done as part of that Bill.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: The Minister I'm sure will be aware of the devastating bird flu outbreak in Flintshire amongst Wales's largest colonies of common terns and black-headed gulls now at these sites, which span the Dee estuary. It's estimated that hundreds of birds have died, and it's been reported that not a single black-headed gull chick has been seen to fledge from the site this year, where normally there would be many hundreds. And we also know that, last year, on the RSPB's Grassholm island in Pembrokeshire, it was estimated that many thousands had died of bird flu there. So, maybe you can give us an update on the situation in relation to highly pathogenic avian influenza in wild birds, and what action the Welsh Government is taking. But more specifically in relation to your portfolio, of course, given the devastating and immediate impacts of this highly pathogenic strain of bird flu that is hitting our sea bird colonies so intensely across the UK, do you recognise that it must now be an urgent priority for the Welsh Government to publish a sea bird conservation strategy, without further delay?

Julie James AC: Thank you, Llyr. This is actually in Lesley Griffiths's portfolio, but, obviously, we work extremely closely together, because it crosses over a number of the biodiversity issues that you've raised. It is very worrying indeed. We saw the Manx shearwater affected last year. You're absolutely right about the gulls—it's absolutely devastating, and we're just as concerned as everyone else. Lesley's officials and mine are working together to see what can be done in the very short, immediate term, and then obviously on a longer term strategy for better conservation and, actually, better regulation as well. So, we're very keen to make sure that there are protected places in Wales where human beings just don't go during important parts of the nesting and fledging cycle. And yes, we'll be bringing forward various plans, but it's Lesley and her portfolio that will be looking at the immediate action to be taken in light of the still widely circulating avian flu. It's just extremely concerning, isn't it, and we probably will have to take more measures for farm birds as well.

John Griffiths AC: Minister, sticking with avian influenza, the RSPB is calling for a moratorium on the release of game birds, because some 2.3 million annually are released across Wales, and game birds can become infected and transmit HPAI to wild birds. There is a concern that the release of game birds could provide an additional source of susceptible birds, which could serve as a reservoir for HPAIand maintain the virus over the late summer, early autumn, in the months leading up to the arrival of large numbers of migratory wild birds. So, I wonder, Minister, whether you're considering, whether Welsh Government is considering, a plan to put in place to prevent the spread of HPAI from captive-bred birds, such as game birds, to wildlife?

Julie James AC: As I said in response to Llyr, John, this is part of my colleague Lesley Griffiths's portfolio, but, obviously, her officials and mine, and she and I, work very closely together on this, and we will be bringing forward some measures as a result of this still widely circulating flu in the avian population, which is really worrying, and there have been really devastating impacts of that. So, we will have to look at dramatic measures, really, to try and take steps to protect some of our most precious birds. And here in Wales, we've been very lucky, because we have breeding colonies of very rare birds, which we need to protect for global biodiversity, as well as for our own. So, yes, officials are working very hard on a strategy to contain that.

Rail Connectivity in North Wales

Mark Isherwood AC: 2. How is the Welsh Government aiming to improve rail connectivity in north Wales? OQ59773

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. We're working hard to improve rail connectivity in north Wales by investing where we have devolved responsibility, including in new trains. Rail infrastructure and services to London remainthe UK Government’s responsibility, including the four Avanti services a day we've seen removed in north Wales during the busy summer period.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. In response to a written question four years ago, the then Minister for economy and transport stated that,
'The Welsh Government has established a 3 stage new station assessment process...to...ensure a pipeline of new schemes is available to take advantage of future funding opportunities...from UK Government',
and that Holywell Junction station in Greenfield had been added to the list of potential new stations. In response to a written question I received from you this week, you referred to the Welsh Government's aspiration of reopening the station, should funding become available from the UK Government, adding,
'In the meantime we're focusing our resources on getting the most from existing infrastructure—an approach supported by the north Wales transport commission in their interim report.'
However, their interim report also includes support for the creation of a new station at Deeside industrial park, and work to make Shotton station an important interchange. What further action has therefore been taken regarding Greenfield station in the four years since I first raised this, and what is your current understanding of the position with Deeside park and Shotton stations?

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. In those four years, rail infrastructure still has not been devolved to the Welsh Government as we would like. We have taken steps to fund the first stages of the development of a business case in order to protect our aspiration for reopening the Holywell Greenfield station should station funding become available. But, as he said at the beginning of this question, it's 'where opportunities for funding become available.' Well, they don't very often become available, and that is our problem. We have a long pipeline of aspirations, including Deeside, and I dare say that the Burns report from north Wales, which I hope you're all engaging with, will add to that. But in the absence of funding, or in the absence of the UK Government taking its responsibility to improve infrastructure for Wales, then our options are limited.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, first of all, to ask a question to the Deputy Minister—Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you so much, Presiding Officer. Deputy Minister, as you're well aware, last week we debated a petition calling for the blanket roll-out of 20 mph speed limits here in Wales to be scrapped. You know my position on the matter, and I think everyone does by now, but, for anyone who doesn't, I'm all for targeted 20 mph limits outside schools, play areas, busy high streets, but not a Wales-wide move. I want to thank the Chair of the Petitions Committee for bringing the debate forward last week, based on the time restrictions that we had, but we only discussed one petition that gained in excess of 21,000 signatures, and there are many more out there totalling a near 100,000 signatures.
I'm sure even you can agree, Deputy Minister, that these figures completely outweigh the few mere thousand who took part in the Welsh Government's consultation to begin with. My inbox and social media platforms have been inundated with messages from residents across Wales thanking me and my colleagues for standing up for them, and speaking up against the latest project that you have of 20 mph, whereas it would appear the video that you posted on social media, praising your speech in the Chamber last week defending the scheme, went down like a cup of cold sick. I struggled to find one supportive comment when I was trawling through my social media. So, given that a growing number of the Welsh population are against this, and, dare I say, even some of your own colleagues have doubts, when will you put your ego aside and eventually admit to a mistake and do a u-turn, if and when required, on this 20 mph?

Lee Waters AC: It is not a blanket policy.

Natasha Asghar AS: Wow, was that the answer? Okay, fine. If that's the response, I am kind of shocked—I'm not going to lie—but not surprised.
Okay, let's park the 20 mph scheme for a minute, as there are many other important areas of transport where you and this Government have been failing. So, let's talk about Cardiff. It's played host to some big musical names, such as Beyoncé, Coldplay, Harry Styles. Thousands of people had fantastic times at these events, and I know you were one of them, Deputy Minister, based on the cringey video you shared of yourself at Coldplay. However, for many people, the fun stopped as soon as they left and tried to make their way home. Trains were packed to the rafters, and there simply weren't enough carriages, in fact, being put on for these particular events. So, on the day of the Harry Styles concert, passengers were forced to endure a hellish—and I quote the word 'hellish'—three-hour journey, with people crammed outside toilets and in the aisle because the train just had two carriages. One woman, in fact, fainted on the train due to overcrowding and lack of air conditioning. These aren't new problems, Deputy Minister; I raised similar issues last year when Ed Sheeran and Tom Jones played in Cardiff. Yet, as usual, no improvements have been made.So, Deputy Minister, do you agree that our public transport network, which you are running now into the ground, seriously hampers our ability to hold these major, world-class events?

Lee Waters AC: I don't agree with that, because the evidence shows that they are still coming to Cardiff and are still widely appreciated. It is a simple fact of physics that when you have 70,000 people in one place, all trying to leave at the same time, there is going to be congestion and queueing. That is true of any sports stadium or mass event stadium anywhere in the world. I'd love to hear any practical suggestions Natasha Asghar has for managing that in a different way; we are all ears. There were extra services put on by both Great Western and Transport for Wales. It's regrettable that there were uncomfortable conditions.
As you know, we have a radical programme of renewal and investment in trains—over £800 million in new carriages and £1 billion in the metro project, and this is coming on-stream. And I'm looking forward to many more successful events in the stadium and elsewhere.

Natasha Asghar AS: Deputy Minister, it's not just concerts and big events that cause public transport nightmares for residents. I'm regularly receiving complaints about the closure of the Treherbert to Pontypridd line, and the replacement bus services. The replacement bus services have been utterly appalling, quite frankly. Cardiff-bound replacement buses aren't turning up and when they do arrive, they are already full and do not stop anywhere where they're supposed to. It's taking up to four hours for commuters just to get home from work in the evening. One woman was, in fact, admitted to hospital with chest pains due to the stress caused by rail replacement bus services, and another woman handed in her notice because she cannot bear to travel into Cardiff on these rail replacement buses. So, just let that sink in for everyone. A woman has been forced to quit her job because of this truly despicable service. These people are being put through hell on a daily basis, and they feel the man responsible for Transport for Wales is turning his back on them. But should we really be surprised? It turns out you cannot even perform a basic task like voting the right way, Deputy Minister, so how on earth can we expect you to deal with the issues of the day? Deputy Minister, what do you say to those who are having to endure this horrific service, and what will you do to end this misery going forward?

Lee Waters AC: I've asked the Member before for her engineering suggestions of how else we completely overhaul the railway line without closing it. I've not had any answers, but there's still time to submit those thoughts. I fear it is inevitable, and many of the people in the area understand that the dislocation and inconvenience will result in better services, and, obviously, in the meantime it is deeply unpleasant for many and I completely understand that, which is why we're working with Transport for Wales to get the work completed as soon as is practically possible, and I'm confident the service that people will receive after that will be of a completely different magnitude.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you very much, Llywydd. I want to start by drawing the Minister's attention to the state of temporary accommodation and the use of temporary accommodation here in Wales. The latest statistics show that back on 30 April there were 10,444 individuals waiting and living in temporary accommodation, with almost a third of them—3,214—being children under the age of 16, and those numbers are increasing.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Evidence from Tai Pawb showed that the biggest rise in use of temporary accommodation has been in the least suitable forms, including hotels and bed-and-breakfast accommodation. Such accommodation can have logistical issues, including families sharing one room, a lack of space for children to play, shared bathroom facilities and a lack of cooking resources. They often have poor or no internet connection, putting residents at a disadvantage as they're not able to apply for benefits, access online banking or register for support services. What action therefore is the Minister taking to ensure that temporary accommodation reaches a minimum standard, and what plans does the Welsh Government have to ensure that temporary accommodation in Wales can meet the needs of the increasing number of people dependent on such services?

Julie James AC: Diolch, Mabon. The numbers of people in temporary accommodation are very high. It is important, though, to say that not all of those are in very unsuitable accommodation. We have, as I know you know, a transitional accommodation capital programme in place that has been delivering a much better standard of temporary accommodation. This has been an ongoing conversation. I was talking at the Community Housing Cymru conference just this morning about the balance to be struck between making sure that we build the net-zero low-carbon homes for the future in our social rented sector, without coming away from the standard for that, but that we also increase the provision of temporary accommodation, which is good pro tem accommodation, as opposed to hotels and bed and breakfasts, which are clearly unsuitable, and we are trying very hard to get people out of those as soon as possible.
I have asked officials to see if we can work out a way with our local authority and registered social landlord partners to get accurate numbers of people who are in which type of temporary accommodation. That sounds like an easy request to make, but it's turned out to be quite a difficult piece of data to collect, because we only collect how the payments are made and not the type of accommodation. I've been very clear with partners that we are open to any suggestion at all that will allow people to move out of hotel and bed-and-breakfast accommodation as soon as possible into much more suitable accommodation, and that we will sort the plumbing out. So, I'll say that again publicly on the floor of the Senedd: don't worry, if you're a partner organisation looking to get people into better accommodation, about trying to fit your idea to one of the Welsh Government funding schemes. Give us the idea and we’ll fix the funding stream for you, because we really do need to get people—. And lots of people have been coming forward with innovative solutions. It’s just a fact, though, that as fast as we move people into permanent and better temporary accommodation—and we are still moving around 400 to 600 people a month into permanent, high-quality accommodation—we are unable to stop the flow of people into the system, caused, I’m afraid, in very great part by the cost-of-living crisis that we are experiencing.
So, Mabon, I know you’re aware, but I’ll explain for the rest of the Senedd, that as a result of the co-operation agreement, we are working on two things. We are working on a homelessness prevention strategy to go alongside our homelessness plan, and also a strategy, of course, to accelerate social house building across Wales using all of the levers at our disposal. Because we have to attack the list from both ends. We have to both stop people becoming homeless in the first place, to the best of our ability, and of course we have to build the housing that’s really the only long-term solution to coming out the other end.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I thank the Minister for that response.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: So, the temporary accommodation crisis I just alluded to, and you've just responded to there, is just one part of the broader housing crisis that we’re facing. But the situation isn’t hopeless. There are solutions, we know, that can work in tandem with each other, whether that involves increasing the availability of municipal housing, as you’ve touched on, and reforming homelessness legislation, or using precision support such as local housing allowances or discretionary housing payments. So, I’d like to take this opportunity to touch on the discretionary housing payment element.
DHPs are a primary tool available to local authorities in dealing with pressures relating to homelessness, which is on the rise, partly due to increases in rental prices and the impact on low-income tenants. A recent report by the Bevan Foundation recommended that the Welsh Government should increase its investment in the DHP fund, so that local authorities can top up DHPs to the maximum allowable under DHP rules, as well as allocating discretionary funds to prevent homelessness at the start of the financial year, to ensure local authorities have greater certainty on planning DHP spending. So, how does the Minister respond to these recommendations by the Bevan Foundation, and has the Minister considered adopting these approaches to preventing homelessness?

Julie James AC: Yes, so we're very interested in the use of the discretionary housing programme. There are a number of other discretionary streams of funding available as well. The Minister for Social Justice and I have been looking across the piece at a number of discretionary funding streams, and it’s absolutely a top priority for us to keep people in their homes if at all possible. That’s clearly the best solution for most people, and so we will be working—we are working, I should say; I’ve already had a number of meetings on this—with local government colleagues in particular to understand more about what’s happening with the spend. So, we’ve also got very odd cycles of spend in some local authorities, so we’ve been looking to see whether our distribution mechanisms are as effective as they might be, what the spend profiling, as it’s called, looks like, is there a pattern to it that we can better match, and quite a lot of quite intricate detail about exactly how it’s put out and to whom and what the application processes look like. So, there’s quite a lot of very detailed work going on about making sure that it’s as effectively targeted as is humanly possible.
The budget process has been horrendous this year. It’s not going to get any better for next year. I continue to press the point that it is much cheaper to keep people in their home than it is to have to put them through the homelessness system. It’s cheaper in human misery terms and it’s cheaper financially, so it makes a lot of sense to do that, and I’ll continue to push that point, but in the teeth of the one of the worst budget settlements—well, the worst budget settlement—we’ve ever had as a Welsh Government. But, absolutely, and if there are any other ideas on what we can do to make that happen. So, the overarching recommendation we absolutely accept, and the devil’s in the detail a little bit about exactly how we get under it.

Fly-tipping

Jayne Bryant AC: 3. Will the Minister provide an update on Welsh Government action to tackle fly-tipping in Wales? OQ59806

Julie James AC: Diolch, Jayne. We continue to fund the fly-tipping action Wales programme. In 2022, we doubled the funding to £1.2 million for the next three years to enhance our support for environmental regulators and communities to tackle fly-tipping. The programme assists with operational and enforcement activities, alongside delivery of a national fly-tipping prevention communication campaign.

Jayne Bryant AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. Fly-tipping blights our communities. It can range from dumping household waste on a street corner to criminals fly-tipping on an industrial scale. When the vast majority of people are doing everything right, it's a source of huge frustration seeing individuals deliberately, consistently and often blatantly spoiling our local neighbourhoods. Last Friday, I had the opportunity and pleasure of speaking to children from Malpas Church in Wales primary school. It was really sad to hear that fly-tipping around their area was one of their biggest concerns, but it was really heartwarming to know how much they're determined to do their bit and influence other people.
Authorities seem limited in their abilities to address the worst offenders, with prosecutions taking a huge amount of time, and eventual fines not acting as great enough deterrents, and local authorities and bodies like Natural Resources Wales are trying to do their best, but, at the moment, they don't seem to have the correct tools to effectively tackle the issue. So, how can Welsh Government streamline the process of tackling repeat fly-tippers, so that authorities are able to act swiftly and efficiently to tackle the worst perpetrators? And will you give encouragement to my constituents in Malpas Church in Wales primary school for their ideas and their work on what they can do and what they would like to see to tackle this issue?

Julie James AC: I'll do that with the greatest of pleasure, Jayne. I think the concern that our schoolchildren across Wales show for the environment in all of its forms is something to be very proud of. My colleague Jeremy Miles and I are very proud of the eco-schools programme as well. I've met many eco-school councils across Wales, and I know that Jeremy has as well, and I'm sure all of you have in your own constituencies. The enthusiasm and—I don't know what to call it, really—vigour with which they approach the subject is great. Actually, they've been very instrumental, of course, in much of our recycling, because they take it home to their parents, and if they're anything like my children, there are big lists above the bin, telling you what you can and can't put in there. I think my children even have a fining system for people who aren't compliant. Really, I'm very happy to say how great that is.
In terms of local authorities, I'm very happy, actually, to write back out to local authorities again, because they do have a broad range of enforcement tools available to them, and we do encourage them to fully utilise the existing enforcement options. Repeat offenders should be prosecuted through the courts. I do take the point about the time that takes and the fines, but, nevertheless, it does have a very deterrent effect, we know that, if people think they are likely to be prosecuted. So, we do encourage that, but we also—. I will remind local authorities that there are alternative enforcement options available. The local authority would be well within its right to confiscate a vehicle involved in fly-tipping, for example, which has a very deterrent effect. So, I will remind local authorities of the range of powers they have at their disposal too.

Road Safety in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire

Samuel Kurtz MS: 4. What is the Welsh Government doing to improve road safety in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire? OQ59789

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. We work closely with Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire councils, the highway authorities responsible for road safety in their counties. Since 2019, they have received over £5 million of road safety funding. This year, they’ll receive over £2.5 million to implement the new 20 mph speed limit, which is the biggest road safety initiative in a generation.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Weinidog. Only a few weeks ago, I raised with you the serious safety concerns regarding the A477 Nash Fingerpost junction, following the tragic death of Ashley Rogers in May of this year. A petition calling for safety improvements reached 10,000 signatures in only a couple of weeks, showing the strength of feeling that something needs to be done at this junction. Safety issues, however, aren't just isolated to this junction alone.
At Milton, also on the A477, speeding continues to be a concern for residents and road users. At Kilgetty, also on the A477, an unsafe crossing for pedestrians and mobility scooter users is worrying, and at Llanddowror, at an exit junction, also on the A477, this exit junction has caused a number of near misses, with a road sign being repeatedly crashed into over a number of years. The A477 is used by local commuters, tourists and transcontinental lorry drivers, so it's vital that safety along this whole route and stretch of road is improved.
Can I ask that your officials work with the South Wales Trunk Road Agent to undertake a full and comprehensive review of the A477 between Pembroke Dock and St Clears, because at only 22 miles long, it may be relatively short in Wales's road network, but there are far too many near misses and, unfortunately, tragic deaths along this stretch of road? Diolch, Llywydd.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you, and, again, if I can give my condolences to the family of Ashley Rogers for his premature death, which we all regret. There are too many deaths on roads in Wales, some 80 a year, which we've become conditioned to, and we oughtn't to be.
In terms of the specific area that Sam Kurtzhighlights, the Nash Fingerpost junction on the A477, the Welsh Government and the trunk road agents have investigated collisions and near misses at the site. Their study included CCTV monitoring, which captured driver behaviour and sought to establish if there were any issues with the junction's operation, as it is a standard-constructed junction. It was found, as part of the monitoring, that there are some instances of large vehicles blocking visibility, there are some vehicles using the junction for u-turns, and some vehicles are so-called overshooting the junction—that is to say they are turning right from the A4075 but stopping within the A477 westbound lane. The study has recommended infrastructure changes and is further investigating options.
In terms of the broader corridor, the roads review looked in detail at schemes to address safety. It strongly said that we should be looking at individual instances, and dealing with those, and that one of the main tools at our disposal was in fact lowering speed limits, rather than making engineering changes as a default. That, of course, has the advantage of being able to be done quickly, to be done cheaply, and with minimal carbon impact. That is now very much part of the suite of approaches we take to tackling areas of road safety, and I’ll be happy to keep the Member up to date with the progress that we make with our studies.

Bus Travel

Carolyn Thomas AS: 5. What consideration has the Welsh Government given to a campaign aimed at increasing bus passenger numbers, following the announcement of the bus transition fund? OQ59778

Lee Waters AC: Thank you, Carolyn. It’s essential that we get people back into the habit of using public transport. Usage is down since the pandemic right across the world. Discussions are taking place with Transport for Wales, industry partners and trade organisations on the design and delivery of a campaign to get people back onto buses.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you for that answer, Minister. For many people, deciding whether to take the bus comes down to confidence—knowing which bus to get, where from, what number, et cetera. From my experience of bus journeys across north Wales, I know that the Traveline Cymru website and app are really good. I think it's been updated, and I find it really easy to use.
I recently met with the older persons' commissioner and we discussed the importance of the Traveline phone line as well for those that aren't online, and she suggested that perhaps we could make the Traveline phone number available on all bus shelters. So, would you consider talking to Transport for Wales and our partners at the WLGA to see if they could make that possible, putting it on all bus shelters, so at least they can phone somebody to find out when the next bus is coming along and what the timetables are?
I'd also be grateful if the Minister knows how many routes will be retained following the announcement of the bus transition fund and when they will be announced.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. On the final point, we are still working through with local authorities and TfW to get an accurate picture of the routes that companies are still willing to run in the light of the extra support we've put in place. We are making good progress on that. We have some strong confidence on the school routes that will be preserved for the September term, but we don't yet have a final figure on exactly how many will be preserved, and that's partly because commercial operators will still be making their own decisions about which routes make sense, given that passenger behaviour has changed. So, it's still an emerging picture, but we remain confident that the vast majority of routes will be safeguarded.
On her substantive point, I completely agree with her that information and tackling false perceptions are critical to getting people to change their mode of transport, and there's very strong research to show that. People have got out of the habit since coronavirus—as she mentioned—of getting on the bus, and many people have never been on a bus. We know that half of people have never used the bus. I haven't been a particularly frequent bus user through my life, I must say, but I have started using the bus. I tend to use train and bicycle and walk more than bus, having had bad experiences as a student of the TrawsCymru bus to Aberystwyth—even the smell of it now still makes me feel sick.
But I must say, I've been using the Traveline Cymru website, which is excellent, and the app. But the phone line—as she said, particularly for people who are digitally excluded—is outstanding. You get through to a very friendly call centre in north Wales who take great patience and time to talk you through where exactly you are, where the bus stop is, how frequent the services are. I think it is a very important tool we have now within the TfW fold. Many bus stops do have the Traveline number already on it, but I've asked my officials to give consideration to how best we publicise the contact details more. I would urge all Members, as part of their social media activity, to draw attention to Traveline Cymru as a practical way we can give people the help they need to use public transport more.

As an occasional user of the T1C bus between Cardiff and Aberystwyth, I can confirm, for the record, that there is no lingering smell on that bus anymore. Things have improved since the time you were a student, Deputy Minister.

Sam Rowlands MS: I had the pleasure of taking a bus recently, Deputy Minister, from Abergele to Llanddulas—just over a 2-mile journey. The reason for me taking that journey by bus was to make sure I could fully enjoy the evening that was ahead of me, but I was blown away when the price of the ticket was £6.10, Llywydd, for that journey of just over 2 miles. At the time of my thinking, about two pints at the Val was the cost of that ticket. You'll be aware, Deputy Minister, that in England there's a fantastic campaign called 'Get around for £2'. I would suggest that's a really good campaign, perhaps, to consider here in Wales, where a single bus journey won't cost those users more than £2, no matter the length of that bus journey. I would suspect that that is a very simple-to-understand campaign and a very good way of encouraging people to use bus services in the future. Is that something you're considering?

Lee Waters AC: First of all, on the cost of bus travel, I would agree with Sam Rowlands that many bus fares have become very high, and that is—just to be clear—a direct consequence of privatisation. Since privatisation, bus fares have risen far sharper than the cost of using the car, and that's because we have allowed commercial operators to be the driving force. They'll only run a route if they can make a profit rather than provide a public service, and that's why we'll be legislating next year for a fully planned franchise system, which will allow us to regulate the routes, the fares and the frequency.
But any bus system is only as good as the amount of money you're prepared to put into it, and I am an admirer of the Government in England's scheme of a £2 bus fare. As I've said in this Chamber before, we've done a lot of work to see whether or not we could do a £1 flat bus fare, and became quite advanced on that journey. But the cost, I'm afraid, of an extra £90 million a year is simply not affordable for us within the austerity budgets we are facing. I was disappointed when that funding in England was announced, because it was made very clear by the Ministers announcing it that this was new money, and as he knows from the way the Barnett formula works, when there is announcement of new money for England only in a devolved area, we would expect to get a 5 per cent population share of that. But on investigation, we were told that, in fact, no, indeed, it was not new money, and there is no Barnett consequential, and we've not been able to follow suit, which I deeply regret.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: The best advert to get people to use buses, of course, is to provide good-quality bus routes. I'm waiting for the Minister to find his headset. The best advert for bus services is to provide those good services that serve communities effectively, and regular buses and dependable buses. Although I welcome a great deal the transition fund, it's only a temporary step. We need to ensure that the numbers using the service increase in the long term too. Can I ask, therefore, how the Deputy Minister expects the bus network to develop in rural areas such as Ynys Môn in years to come, so that we do have services that are attractive and sustainable?

Lee Waters AC: Thank you for the question.

Lee Waters AC: He is absolutely right that the pattern of bus use in rural areas is trickier. We have tried to prioritise in the work we've been doing with the regional scrums, as we're calling them—the local authorities working on a regional footprint—the preservation of bus services. What we've seen in urban areas is in order to make it affordable we've had to reduce the frequency of some bus services, but we'll keep the route going. In rural areas, where the frequency is already less, we've tried to ensure that those are not reduced at all, because we know they're a lifeline to rural villages.
I'm keen to look at continental examples of how we can help achieve the modal shift we need to see to tackle climate change in rural areas, because there are many countries, like Germany and Sweden and Switzerland, in areas far more sparsely populated than Wales, where they manage to have a very frequent, high-quality bus service. In fact, in parts of Germany they have a policy of one bus service per hour to every village of a certain size, and that's funded by a regional business tax. So, there are models. Where people want to do it, it can be done, and where there's a will, there's a way. There's nothing intrinsically impossible for a rural area to have a quality bus service.
In fact, there are a range of things that we can offer in rural areas, including the demand-responsive Fflecsi pilot that we've been doing. It's likely to be part of the patchwork that we tender as part of the franchising. Things like car sharing and car clubs definitely have a role to play, as do electric bikes, which have got huge potential for people for modal shift, particularly in rural and semi-rural and hilly areas. We're trialling that scheme as well—the E-Move scheme with Sustrans, where we're subsidising people to have free loans of electric bikes in order to access key services, and that's proving hugely successful. So, I think there is a suite of measures we can take to make sustainable transport as a whole a more realistic option for people in rural areas.
On the current scheme for buses, which he asked about specifically—how do we keep that going—well, that's going to be a challenge for us all, given the financial settlements that we are facing. We've managed to get some stability and certainty to the end of this financial year, and we're working closely with local authorities to see what we can do to keep that going beyond then.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Minister. Can I thank Carolyn Thomas for raising this issue? I know it's a really important issue for you. Thank you for keeping it in our eyes in the Senedd.
I just want to talk a little bit about the investment, particularly following on from Rhun's question around how important it is for rural areas to have those bus services. I guess I've got a question, really, about the roads review and the money-saving potential from not building more roads, which I totally support, and whether there's a possibility that that saving could then be transferred to be invested in our buses. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lee Waters AC: I think the thing to remember about the saving from the roads review is there's no immediate saving, because we're continuing to build the roads that were already under way. For example, the Dee bridge is heading for completion later in the year. That is a very significant investment, about half our budget this year. We're building the road in Pembrokeshire, which is also making good progress. So, we're not saving any money immediately. The point of the roads review was to shift funding over time into more sustainable transport, and also to invest money in the maintenance of our existing roads, rather than building new ones when we're struggling to upkeep the roads we already have. So, there is no immediate saving, sadly, but it is part of a shift we're making as part of our Wales transport strategy approach and our climate change goals to make public transport the easiest way to get around. Because we know, for 70 years, we've made it that the easiest way to get around is to travel by car, and that's what people do, because it is easy and convenient. And the reverse is also true—it is less convenient and easy to use public transport. If we make public transport the easiest way to get around, people will do it. That's what happens in other countries. It really isn't that complicated, but we need to make it so, and that does require more investment and that's what we need to see over time. Sadly, because of the austerity policies we're facing now, we're having to face the opposite, where we're having to look at saving money at a time when we want to be expanding services, and that is very difficult.

Community Green Spaces in Cardiff

Rhys ab Owen AS: 6. What discussions has the Minister had with Cardiff Council and other partners regarding the expansion of community green spaces in Cardiff? OQ59795

Julie James AC: Thank you for the question, Rhys.

Julie James AC: The Welsh Government liaises with Cardiff city council through both the local nature partnership and planning authority about the creation and improvement of community green spaces. Support is available through the Local Places for Nature, community facilities and access improvement grants. Our planning policy supports green infrastructure provision for new developments as well.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch yn fawr, Gweinidog. Planners in Madrid are attempting to encircle the city with an urban forest to mitigate the climate emergency and to improve biodiversity. There's a similar ambitious idea being put forward by campaigners here in Cardiff, especially the local activist Steffan Webb, for the city to become a new park city with large country parks on the outskirts of the city. This would, of course, develop natural flood defences, improve air quality, and absorb greenhouse emissions generated by the capital. Most of the parks in Cardiff were opened during the Victorian age, without any new parks in decades. How can we make sure, Gweinidog, that more green spaces are opened in Cardiff, particularly in those large, new housing developments currently being built around the city, in which, despite being in a semi-rural location, there are no community green spaces? Diolch yn fawr.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Rhys. If you want to put that gentleman in touch with me, I'm very happy to talk to them about being part of the national forest initiative as well. That sounds very interesting. At the moment, the Welsh Government is investing more than £1.2 million into creating and improving community green spaces in Cardiff over the next two years. We're collaboratingdirectly with Cardiff Council through the Local Places for Nature local nature partnership scheme, and as well as undertaking a green infrastructure assessment as part of preparing the development plans, planning authorities must develop clear policies for protecting and enhancing multifunctional green infrastructure provision, and that does include the provision, protection and enhancement of sport, recreation and leisure facilities, including formal and informal green spaces and quiet areas.
I'm sure that Members will all be aware that I've recently consulted on changes to 'Planning Policy Wales' to strengthen our approach to the provision of green infrastructure. One of the changes I'm proposing is that a green infrastructure statement should accompany the submission of any planning application. This will ensure that applicants give early consideration to green infrastructure as part of designing projects, and that appropriate provision actually comes forward as part of the development. We welcome communities taking ownership of green spaces, and we fund the Community Land Advisory Service to provide support for local groups to identify and take ownership or control of green spaces for allotments and other food-growing projects, as well as for recreation. So, again, there are possibilities there for the project that you're mentioning. Cardiff will receive over £102,000 over the next two years under the allotment support grant, and intend to bring 69 derelict plots back into use at Splott, Rhiwbina and Gabalfa. Cardiff has also received £2.25 million in grants through the Transforming Towns scheme for green infrastructure improvements at three sites across the city.
The only other thing I'd like to say is that we've been doing a great deal of planning for the Gwent levels; we're looking to produce a master plan for the Gwent levels. So, very similar to the forest around Madrid that you're talking about, the Gwent levels are the lungs of both Cardiff and Newport, so having a master plan to ensure that they're brought back into the very best possible conservation status, that they're protected from development and that they continue to be open access to the people of both Cardiff and Newport and, of course, the rest of Wales, will be very important as well. But, I'm very happy to talk more about any other innovative projects that you have in mind.

Active Travel

Siân Gwenllian AC: 7. What support is available to rural schools in Arfon that are trying to encourage more active travel to school? OQ59803

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. The Welsh Government is committed to enabling more children to walk, scoot and cycle to school. We provide annual grant funding to local authorities to improve active travel routes in the vicinity of schools to achieve this aim, as well as programmes and resources to promote active travel.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you very much. I have a particular interest in promoting active travel to schools by pupils who live in rural homes, where getting to school on foot or on bike is too dangerous because the roads are narrow and inappropriate to be expanded to create pavements. There are parents in Groeslon, Llandwrog, Mynydd Llandygai, for example, who are very eager for their children to be able to walk or cycle to school, but they are concerned about safety on these narrow roads. So, what can be done in rural places? Are there examples of good practice that you could refer to, please?

Lee Waters AC: Thank you for the question.

Lee Waters AC: Now, our active travel programme obviously does include rural areas, and local authorities are able to put forward on their active travel maps any areas that they would like to identify for improvements, and dedicate that funding in the years that come. Gwynedd, unfortunately, is the only county in Wales not to have had its active travel map approved by the Welsh Government, and that's despite extending the deadline for them to do so. We are obviously still funding them, but we would like their performance to improve. There are three rural routes that they have in development this financial year, and we want that to improve. There was a funding bid for the route between Bethel and Caernarfon this year that wasn't able to progress because sufficient permissions and advance work had not been done, which made it too high risk to be able to have confidence they'd be able to spend it within year. We're also doing a number of behaviour interventions with schools, and the safe routes in communities grant is obviously still available too.
So, we know from the evidence that a combination of infrastructure measures and behaviour measures is what we need to see. And, as I was saying in the question to Rhun ap Iorwerth earlier, we also know that, in rural areas, the combination of measures might be different to those in rural areas. But road safety and modal shift are both imperatives, and we're keen to continue to work together with local authorities, and to help them to get the skills they require to improve their performance, to make sure that every child has the same opportunities, rather than just ones with councils that are better at applying than others.

Finally, question 8, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Ffos-y-fran Opencast Coal Mine

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: 8. Will the Minister provide an update on the continuing operations at the Ffos-y-fran opencast coal mine? OQ59799

Julie James AC: Thank you, Peredur. An appeal has been submitted, and therefore it's very important that I do not say anything that could lead to a future legal challenge in response to any decision by Welsh Ministers in respect of this case, I'm afraid.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: I've got to possibly ask the question, and you might give the same response to my supplementary as well, but maybe you could comment in more general terms.
Operations at Ffos-y-fran opencast coal mine in Merthyr should've come to a halt on 7 September last year. This would've ended a 15-year living nightmare for local residents, who have been forced to endure all the noise and the pollution that had come hand in hand with the UK's largest opencast. As we know, this was not the end of matters and, over the last 10 months, the mine owners have gamed the planning system, with hardly any resistance from authorities to extend the life of the mine, extracting hundreds of thousands of tonnes of coal. Minister, do you accept the view of barristers working with the campaign group, Coal Action Network, that you could have intervened sooner, and the situation that has unfolded has brought the planning system into disrepute? And finally, do you and the lawyers advising your department consider that there is any merit in the aforementioned barristers' view that it is arguable that your delay in taking enforcement action is unlawful?

Julie James AC: I'm really sorry, Peredur, but I absolutely can't comment on an ongoing litigation matter, particularly in view of comments you're making about the legal opinions being expressed. I'm sure, Llywydd, at some point, we'll be able to debate it properly, but I'm afraid today is not the day.

I thank the Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language

We'll move on to questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language.The first question is from Gareth Davies.

Schools' Kitchen and Dining Facilities

Gareth Davies AS: 1. What discussions has the Minister had with Denbighshire County Council regarding the provision of adequate kitchen and dining facilities for schools in Denbighshire? OQ59777

Jeremy Miles AC: My officials continue to engage with Denbighshire County Council, as they do with all local authorities, as we implement our universal primary free school meals commitment. To support the roll-out, £2.1 million in capital funding has been awarded to the authority to help ensure adequate school kitchen and dining facilities.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you for that response, Minister. I recently had a meeting with the head of education for Denbighshire County Council on this very subject, and where the introduction of universal free school meals has been welcomed by the authority, it has also caused a degree of anxiety amongst leaders and local schools in having adequately sized kitchen facilities available to meet the increased use and demand of catering services within the schools, as many of the older schools have small cooking facilities and dining spaces, where they are forced to have staggered lunchtimes in order for all of the pupils to have their lunches.
Are the Welsh Government accepting of this reality in Denbighshire, and do you recognise the priority to fund expansions to school kitchens within the county over the summer, before children head back to school in September? What funding mechanisms are you implementing? You've mentioned the £2.1 million, but we're a bit pushed for time in terms of delivery between now and September, and I'm really keen to make sure that no child in my constituency misses out on this opportunity. So, time is of the essence in that sense, Minister, so what will you do to ensure that the roll-out is effective and that no child in my constituency indeed misses out on this scheme?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, as I say, we are in constant contact with authorities across Wales, including Denbighshire, and I was speaking with the cabinet member there, Gill German, very recently about free school meals in particular and other areas in which we're helping make sure that we reduce the obstacles to being in school and to young people flourishing. As you will know, Denbighshire have already rolled out universal primary free school meals to reception years 1 and 2 in all 46 schools, with pupils and those year groups and are actually on track to deliver phase 2 to years 3 and 4 from September.
In relation to the point you specifically make about capital, the funding has been made available to local authorities on a formula basis, which considered the number of learners and the numbers of schools within the relevant local authority area, which has effectively meantequitable investment across Wales. And my understanding is that many schools in Denbighshire have already benefited from upgrades to cooking and storage facilities, and that there is, in fact, more work planned over the summer. Where there have been particular challenges with particular authorities on particular projects, we've been able to be flexible in relation to that. But I dare say that Denbighshire's situation is common to others, which is that there are planned works over this summer. It's a very large project and it's happening at pace. So, I just want to thank colleagues in Denbighshire and right across Wales for the drive they're bringing to it. It is not without its challenges, but we've been standing ready to support on the questions that he's asking about.

'Cymraeg 2050' Target

Tom Giffard AS: 2. Will the Minister provide an update on the progress being made towards the Cymraeg 2050 target of a million Welsh speakers? OQ59793

Jeremy Miles AC: We provide an annual update on progress against the aims of our Welsh language strategy, 'Cymraeg 2050: a million Welsh speakers', in our annual report. The next report is due during the autumn of 2023.

Tom Giffard AS: A figure of 538,000 Welsh speakers reported in the 2021 census will have been a disappointment to many of us who are looking to make that goal of a million Welsh speakers by 2050; the figure also runs below the Government's own 'Cymraeg 2050' projection from 2017. On the other hand, the annual population survey suggests that over 900,000 people speak the language, but that figure has obviously been rebuked fairly widely. But I raise those contrasting figures to illustrate that statistics can be manipulated and measured to fit a particular target. Particularly when people consider their own proficiency in different ways, there's obviously a lot of room for manouevre on the ultimate outcome being reached. So, can I just ask a really simple and clear question? What is a Welsh speaker that you feel would count towards that million speakers target? Is it someone who knows a few words, or is it someone who could recite the Mabinogion? Therefore, can I get some clarity on exactly what set of figures your successor, or maybe even you still in post in 2050, will be using to ensure that that target has been reached? Will it be the census immediately prior, from 2041, or another set of statistics entirely?

Jeremy Miles AC: I totally reject the divisive politics that are behind the question of who can recite theMabinogion and who can't. [Laughter.] But, in all seriousness, the Member raises an important question. It is not for me to tell anybody whether they're a Welsh speaker. It is inherently a subjective decision, and we want to absolutely move away from a world where you don't feel you can describe yourself as a Welsh speaker unless you are fluent. What does that actually mean? We've been very clear that Welsh belongs to us all, and part of that is recognising that there is a range of confidence and a range of competence, and that, whatever level of proficiency you have, you're entitled to call yourself a Welsh speaker.
The point you make about the data is important. I wouldn't describe it as manipulation; I think it is, in fact, a subjective point, isn't it? So, do you feel, if you're completing a legally-required form for which there is a penalty if you don't complete it, and someone saying, 'Do you speak Welsh?'—. Well, that will make people feel a particular way sometimes, won't it, especially doing it after a period of COVID, when children haven't been in school. Our commitment is that we use the census as the benchmark for progress against the goal, but we will all know that there is a discussion going on at the moment at a UK level about whether the census will continue in the form that it is today. So, we are subject to that broader discussion, like every other Government in the UK will be, but that is the benchmark that we use. You will also know that the First Minister has written to the Office for National Statistics to help us reconcile the two sources of data that you referred to in your question, because it's really important, from a language planning point of view, that we have a dependable, reliable, contextualised understanding of the numbers of Welsh speakers.

Vikki Howells AC: Minister, I was privileged to be part of the procession for the Rhondda Cynon Taf2024 Eisteddfod proclamation in Aberdare two weekends ago, where it was fantastic to see so many local people out supporting and celebrating Welsh culture and language. I know that the Eisteddfod team are already delivering a range of local projects throughout RCT, including offering Welsh language lessons. So, how is Welsh Government working with partners to build on this and embed progress towards delivering that target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050?

Jeremy Miles AC: [Inaudible.]—parents, actually, were at the cyhoeddi as well, and described it to me as a very joyful occasion and a very inclusive occasion. So, it obviously attracted lots of local people, but also people from slightly further afield. I think it's really great to see the Eisteddfod bringing the community of RCT together in this way. For many people, it's a highlight of the summer, isn't it, really, but it's also much more than that week-long festival, which is clear from your question, and it's a two-year partnership, in practice, with communities. And that includes a range of community programmes, initiatives and events, doing exactly what you were doing at the cyhoeddi, which is bringing people into the Eisteddfod and to enjoy Welsh-language culture. Even for those who don't themselves speak Welsh, they can participate fully in that.
The Eisteddfod is working very hard already, as the Member mentioned in her question, to make sure that the local area benefits from the Eisteddfod, both culturally and economically, and, of course, in regards to 'Cymraeg 2050'. And I see the Eisteddfod very much as a catalyst in that sense, bringing communities together and mobilising support for it, and I'm very glad to hear that the Member enjoyed the event.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Party spokespeople to ask their questions now. Conservative spokesperson, Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Every week, we all stand in this Chamber and all of us at some point, I'm sure, recognise that STEM—science, technology, engineering and maths—are of utmost importance and will be the jobs of the future. So, I'm a little confused, Minister: it cannot be right that you're taking away the learner's choice to do the maximum number of hours in science by taking away the opportunity to do those separate sciences, putting those who want to go on and potentially do science, STEM subjects and jobs at an immediate disadvantage to their peers across the border in England and Scotland.
And not only that, instead of our schools offering separate sciences and double science, our schools will now only offer double science and single science. So, as you said before, some major science bodies came on board with you when you said you were going to only offer one route of science in our schools and get rid of the two-tiered system in place currently that many were unhappy with. But now—now—you've moved to another two-tiered system, except this one has less science, less opportunity to go on and study more science, less opportunity to be accepted in the best universities and less opportunity to be prepared for or be competitive in STEM jobs for the future. So, my question to you is: do you and Qualifications Wales really think that this is the best move, in the best interests of our learners in Wales?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, since the Member misquoted the science bodies the last time she put this point to the First Minister, maybe it would be helpful for me to clarify the actual position. So, these decisions are taken by Qualifications Wales. And the point that she makes about STEM is very, very important, and I agree with her that it's important to encourage young people to study STEM subjects up to 16 and beyond. GCSEs in science will continue to acknowledge the importance of each individual discipline. So, each of those—biology, chemistry and physics—within that double award will still be given its own grading. Qualifications Wales are very clear that the new double award GCSE is going to support learners who want to go beyond that to study separate sciences at AS and A-level, at university and indeed beyond that.
She will, I'm sure, have read the published analysis of the data in relation to this at the time when Qualifications Wales published its decision. And that analysis shows that a similar proportion of learners with A*, for example, in their science GCSEs go on to achieve a grade A in AS science subjects, irrespective—irrespective—of whether they took the existing science double award or separate science GCSEs.
The learned societies, in fact, do support the double award, contrary to the point that she made to the First Minister. She's shaking her head. It's absolutely the case that the learned societies do support that. They've raised a concern around the single science award, but we already have a single science award, which is used by about 6 per cent of learners—often those who want to go on to study a STEM subject at A-level or beyond GCSE without doing full sciences. That is a small number and that is a similar sort of number I would expect to take the single science award in future as well.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Minister, you've failed to reassure me that you're doing what's right for learners in Wales. What you're doing is to ensure that Wales loses specialist teachers for English and Science, along with depriving learners of that much-needed additional content. The Royal Society of Chemistry, the Institute of Physics, science teachers and many pupils don't agree with this move. And I am pleased that, as you said, that they will be at least graded separately, but they are only still worth two, not three GCSEs. And it's not just science, is it? English will be a new integrated qualification, for literature and language combined—a double award. However, these will not be reported separately, and, despite there being two grades, they will not be identifiable as 'literature' or 'language'. Minister, I'm sure you're aware that, during the consultation, which you say you've read, obviously, the proposal of combining English literature and language received the most backlash, with 56 per cent of people disagreeing with the idea, yet it's been ploughed ahead with anyway, against the consultation, and against expert advice. So, Minister, it's clear for all to see that these two subjects are completely different, and yet Welsh learners will see less content compared to their peers over the border. So, Minister, why are you pushing ahead with this change, when it's not wanted and when it jeopardises learners' chances in jobs and universities and doesn't respect the real differences between these two subjects?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, the Member is categorically incorrect; that is not the position of the learned societies, the learned bodies. She made this point, incorrectly, to the First Minister last week, she's making it again, incorrectly, to me this week. It is categorically not their position. They are not calling for the restoration of single sciences; they are not doing that. So, the argument—[Interruption.] She may wish that to be the case, but it is not in fact the case. And the reason for that is this: they understand that that will support more people to take STEM subjects beyond 16, which is what we all want to see. And indeed, she will also know that universities make offers based on A-level results, and learners in Wales actually have the benefit of applying with the AS grades in their chosen subjects, which is in contrast to their peers in England. So, they're at an advantage in relation to that.
The point about English is slightly different. It is to make sure that everyone has an opportunity to study English literature. That is not the case at the moment—schools are making choices not to enter people for literature. And I think it is very important, and I would expect that she thinks it's very important, that every learner has an opportunity to do so, and that is the rationale for the change.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Turning to another issue, Minister, as you know, later this year, Wales will see its latest Programme for International Student Assessment results. Last time, Wales languished at the bottom of the PISA rankings in the UK, and was on a par with former eastern bloc nations. Every single predecessor before you, Minister, has failed to hit their targets for PISA, and it seems that we're heading in a similar direction. So, Minister, can you tell this Senedd today: is the 500 still the target for the average scores across the three disciplines, and what do you think the chances are of actually hitting it this time, and will we see Wales in a better position compared to the rest of the UK?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, actually, Wales was the only UK nation to improve in all three PISA domains the last time. For both science and for maths, Wales's scores were not considered by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development to be different to those of Northern Ireland, Scotland, or indeed the OECD average. And Wales's mean score for reading improved from 2015 to 2018, and, as she will know, we've set up a number of actions that we are taking to prioritise an improvement in reading scores. PISA is an important piece of data about the performance of the school system, but it is only one piece of data, and it's important to see it alongside all the others as well.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Llywydd. Minister, just to follow on from Laura Anne Jones's points, yes, there has been a welcome for the double award, but there have been concerns expressed about the single award. How are you going to respond to those, because there have been calls for you to reconsider, to consult, because of the strong connection between the need to ensure skills in science and the concerns that have been expressed by people who know much more than me, and who are experts in this field, in terms of the concerns that they have?
Another change that has, of course, received a great deal of attention is the new, made-for-Wales GCSE qualification. Well, a decade ago, a report by Dr Sioned Davies, 'One language for all', recommended bringing Welsh as a second language to an end, and creating a single continuum for learning Welsh. If we are serious about reaching the target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050, and ensuring that the Welsh language belongs to everyone, why is it that Welsh as a second language is being rebranded, rather than implementing Dr Sioned Davies's recommendation, which is just as relevant now as it was in 2013? When will the education system support every pupil in Wales to become confident Welsh speakers through a single language continuum?

Jeremy Miles AC: There are two points to that question. The first point: the Member is right to say that the learned societies don't oppose the combining of the three into a double award. The point that the Member is making is right on the single award GCSE, but we currently have a single one—we have applied sciences at the moment, and some 6 per cent of pupils take that. Those are the kinds of levels that I would expect to see taking the new one. It's for those people who want to do some science but perhaps don't think that they can do the whole range of sciences, but want to go on to do something then that needs some element of science, but not the three. So, it does allow progression to the next step, but not in the same way, and it reflects the arrangements we have at the moment. There will be an opportunity to discuss this further as the content of the GCSE is designed over the next year, and there'll be an opportunity for those bodies to contribute fully to that along with the profession and others.
In terms of the Member’s second point, the idea of second language has been scrapped; it’s not something that we recognise. The point the Member makes about a continuum—well, that’s the solution. We are creating a continuum in the work we’re doing jointly with Plaid Cymru within the co-operation agreement, in the Bill that we have been consulting on in the White Paper. One of the exciting proposals in there is that we create a single continuum of skills and progression, so that people understand where they are. And that’s true of these new qualifications; they’re not the same, but we’re not starting from the same place in every school, so we have to acknowledge that too.
I would, over time, want to see the difference between the two disappearing, but we’re a long way from ensuring that today.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister, but the truth is that there is going to be a different qualification in English-medium schools as opposed to Welsh-medium schools, which disregards that journey made by that pupil, because there are people who can speak Welsh in English-medium schools as well. However, as you’ll be aware, Minister, with funding from the Welsh Government, the Educators Wales website operates as a jobs portal, where schools can advertise posts free of charge. Another option available that some schools use is Eteach, where posts can be advertised for a cost of £499, plus VAT, or £1,100 per annum for a range of posts. The day before yesterday, 433 posts in Wales were being advertised on Eteach. If each of these had cost £499 to advertise, the total would be £216,067. So, bearing in mind that we have an excellent new system that is free of charge for schools to use, how will you ensure that schools, colleges and local authorities, such as Cardiff Council, stop spending to advertise posts on platforms such as Eteach, and will you commit to write to every local authority in Wales, and every educational institution, to ensure that everyone switches to using the Educators Wales website, so that precious resources aren’t being spent unnecessarily? Isn’t this the whole reason that Educators Wales was established?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, there’s a broader purpose than that to the establishment of Educators Wales. In terms of that company the Member mentioned, I’m not going to comment, because I don’t know all of the details and the range of services that they might provide. But, at the end of the day, it’s a matter for headteachers to decide on how to spend their budget. They have a portal that provides a service free of charge, and there is no bar to them using that. If they use another service, I don’t know what that may provide, so it’s difficult for me to compare those two things. But every head is under financial pressure at the moment, so I am certain that every one of them would look at what steps need to be taken in order to avoid expenditure that they feel is unnecessary.

Higher Education

Rhys ab Owen AS: 3. What discussions has the Minister held with the higher education sector regarding the role of universities in the Welsh Government's strategy published this year, 'Wales innovates: creating a stronger, fairer, greener Wales'? OQ59796

Jeremy Miles AC: The Minister for Economy and I, along with our officials, hold regular discussions with the higher education sector on the opportunities and challenges related to research, development and innovation. Our universities have been fully engaged with the development of 'Wales innovates'.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Thank you, Minister. I’m sure that everyone would agree that research and innovation is crucial for the prosperous future of any nation. But, in his recent article in Barn, Professor Richard Wyn Jones is very critical of the Welsh Government’s strategy, ‘Wales innovates’—there are no specific targets, nothing that can be measured, and so it’s impossible to assess whether the strategy is successful or not. Minister, how do you respond to Richard Wyn Jones’s comments? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: I have read the article, and a number of other articles by Richard Wyn Jones on this issue. The strategy is one that has been consulted upon with the universities, with the vice-chancellors, and others, to ensure that it is appropriate. This is an issue that the Minister for Economy, who is responsible for this policy area, I'm sure has taken into consideration. We have to acknowledge that the landscape has changed significantlyin the past few years in terms of sources available for research and innovation, as the Member stated in his question. I'm aware that the Minister for Economy is committed to spending over £30 million on innovation over the next two years, and to use the SMART FIS—flexible innovation support scheme—as a source of funding, which has just been launched, to deliver that. What we need to ensure now is that we collaborate with our universities to ensure that they are ready and able to operate in that new landscape. It's not one that we want to see. What's happening in Wales is that we have lost access to important sources of funding as a result of our exit from the European Union, and the Westminster Government has refused to provide a redress for that. We still urge them to do that. That's the solution that we want to see, as well as becoming members of Horizon. In the meantime, we are doing everything within our powers and within the limitations on our resources to be able to support our universities through this and in other ways.

Community-focused Schools

Jayne Bryant AC: 4. Will the Minister provide an update on community-focused schools in Wales? OQ59805

Jeremy Miles AC: Community-focused schools are at the heart of our agenda to tackle the impact of poverty on attainment. Funding for family engagement has increased to £6.5 million this financial year, and we continue to provide funding to trial the appointment of community-focused school managers, along with ongoing capital investment.

Jayne Bryant AC: Thank your for that answer, Minister. I recently had the pleasure of visiting John Frost School in my constituency, and it really was fantastic to see the concept of a community-focused school in action. Their offer to the local community includes a large sports hall, AstroTurf pitch, swimming pool, gymnasium, dance studio, outdoor court for tennis, basketball and netball. The school sits at the heart of the community in Duffryn and, in an era when resources and funding are stretched, it makes complete sense to see facilities such as these utilised all day, every day, instead of just through the school term. It's really important that modern schools being built are community-focused schools, but many of the older school buildings struggle with issues such as safety and access. What support can the Welsh Government give to headteachers who are keen to open their schools up to their communities but are struggling with the practicalities?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I thank the Member for outlining the work of John Frost School, which sounds fantastic, actually, and I know that, in her area, there are a number of schools doing really good work in becoming community-focused schools, and I thank them for that. She's right to identify some of the challenges that, perhaps, some of our older schools in particular face. The capital funding that we've announced over the next two years, which is £40 million, building on the £20 million in the previous year, is intended to address some of those practical funding challenges about how you make sure those, perhaps, older facilities are available to the community. We've had two strands of funding that have been offered to local authorities: one for changes over the value of £500,000—each authority was allowed to submit one bid for that—and then the other project is for sums below £500,000 to make sure that there's a range of ways in which we can help, from small to medium-scale projects. And, in addition to that, we issued new guidance to schools at the end of last year, and there will be some more guidance coming out in September, alongside the funding that we've made available both for family liaison officers and community-focused school managers.
The reason this is important is it's a really, really good way of perhaps reaching some learners who are finding it difficult to get back to school, and part of what this does is enable us to remake the relationship between schools and the community, and schools and families. I visited a school in Cardiff when we launched the new capital funding a few weeks ago, and asked one of the pupils there who's benefiting from sports and cooking classes in the evening, how it made him feel to be able to enjoy all those activities and relate a bit differently to school, and he said to me, 'It makes me feel 100 per cent about being in school'. And I just think that's a very simple way of describing why we're trying to do this. We are talking about a capital programme at one end, but what it's really about is making sure that every learner comes to school feeling 100 per cent.

Peter Fox AS: I agree—community-focused schools are absolutely wonderful places, when they're done right, and they offer huge opportunities not only to the learner, but to the community, to strengthen social cohesion, create opportunities around sport, and everything like that. I was proud to lead the construction of many new schools through my county that were community focused in their design, and that was really important in how we shaped and built those schools, so you could isolate educational wings, and things like that. But one of the key barriers that we came up against, and we still come up against now, is finding ways for that formal school community to hand over these wonderful facilities to the wider community outside of the 190 days when they’re being used, and after school, and some of the challenges that governors might have to face in releasing that property—issues around funding, around insurance and damage and all those things—and that’s a conundrum I don’t think we’ve got to grips with properly all around, to encourage far more schools to enter the community-focused regime. So, Minister, I just wonder how the Government might be working further with local authorities to try and level some of those barriers that hold back the development of more community-focused schools.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, the Member raises important questions about how we make sure that school premises are in fact able to be used by the community, and I think, in a sense, looking at them as community-focused schools puts the onus on the school when, in fact, the whole point of it is that it should be a community partnership. So, I think there’s something in that, actually. The guidance we’ve issued is very much dealing with exactly the points that Peter Fox has raised and which Jayne Bryant was raising a moment ago—what are the practical things that can support heads to make those decisions, and also asking governing bodies to look again at this. In a time when there’s a lot going on in school, this may feel like an extra thing. Actually, getting this right is the way that we can move forward on a lot of the other challenges that we’re trying to resolve together. But the direct answer to the Member’s question is the guidance that we’ve made available, and there are some best-practice case studies in there that we hope schools can draw on as they look at their own plans.

Studying Sciences

Jack Sargeant AC: 5. How is the Welsh Government encouraging learners to continue studying sciences until the age of 18? OQ59787

Jeremy Miles AC: Preparing our young people for the jobs of the future is a priority for this Government. We have a range of initiatives in place to support learners to choose STEM career pathways, including increasing the inclusivity of STEM for all learners and partnerships between employers, colleges and schools.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'm grateful, Minister, for your answer. It was just yesterday when we went on a trip down memory lane for me during the debate on Hefin David’s report, when I spoke about my pathway into engineering, and we debated the need for future apprentices in engineering to have that strong STEM background from schools. I was particularly pleased, Minister, just before coming in to questions today, to read the news about Airbus and their visit of year 9 learners from St David’s High School in Saltney, and other schools close by. It’s really good to showcase the opportunities we have in front of us to our potential future apprentices, but also what we need to do is encourage people to take up those science subjects until the age of 18. We’ve debated already this afternoon the science subjects in schools, but I want to take the argument down a different route. How further can the Welsh Government support and encourage students to study science up until the age of 18?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I think, actually, the argument behind the changes that Qualifications Wales have made, and which are supported by learned bodies, is that that change will encourage more people to take STEM subjects beyond 16. So, I think it's important not to lose sight of that, because I agree it may feel counterintuitive, but that's what the data and the consultation are telling us. But even for that single-award science GCSE, that's designed to be, if you like, a more accessible route for those learners who would benefit, perhaps, from focusing on a smaller range of content, but still support their progression beyond 16 to courses at level 2 as well as, in some cases, perhaps courses at level 3.
But I think, ultimately, it isn't actually just about qualifications; it's about the school-long journey to encourage young people to take STEM subjects, and whether it's the physics mentoring project, for example, or girls in STEM—there's a range of interventions that we use—I think, increasingly, making sure that, in primary school, our children understand what this means in practice is really important, and I've been very heartened to see some work. I know that you've had much of this in your own constituency, but I was talking yesterday in the debate on Hefin David's report to Paul Davies about the work in his part of the world as well. I think it's very exciting.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, of course, encouraging learners to continue studying science is not only vital if we are to encourage the next generation of engineers, doctors and nurses, but is also vital if we are to ensure that future generations are equipped with science literacy skills. We saw during the pandemic the amount of science disinformation rise exponentially, and the fact that flat-earthers and those denying climate change still exist, despite the weight of evidence, is one that should concern us all. Minister, do you agree that studying science is the best way to impart critical thinking skills to future generations and will help combat the rise of disinformation about issues such as vaccines and climate change?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Altaf Hussain for that question. I don't think it's the only way of imparting critical thinking skills; I think you can acquire those skills in other disciplines, and I say that as someone who had no talent whatsoever in sciences. I hope that I've managed some critical thinking in other parts of my study. But I do think he is right, though, to make the point that elevating the prominence, if you like, of STEM subjects in school, but also more broadly in society, is important. I absolutely agree with him that critical thinking and the ability to challenge ideas are increasingly important in our society, partly as a consequence of social media, and we are seeing it now in real time in relation to the developments in artificial intelligence. I think that the Curriculum for Wales is coming in at exactly the right moment, focusing as it is on developing that creative thinking, that critical thinking and that curiosity in all learners.

Learners with Additional Learning Needs

Heledd Fychan AS: 6. How does the Welsh Government ensure that all learners with additional learning needs in South Wales Central receive the education and support that they need? OQ59783

Jeremy Miles AC: As part of our additional learning needs reforms, children and young people in South Wales Central will be at the heart of the process to identify, plan for and meet their individual needs, and will have their additional learning provision protected through an individual development plan.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister. Recently, I and my team have seen a marked increase in casework related to children and young people with additional learning needs who don't receive appropriate education and support, and not in their chosen language either. Due to this increase, I've put together a short survey, and almost 100 people responded in under a week, to share powerful stories about the challenges they face in trying to advocate for their children's rights to receive education. Forty-one per cent said that their children could never go on school trips, and that 60 per cent can't take part in extra-curricular activities. We heard the following:

Heledd Fychan AS: 'The school keep ignoring the fact that she's autistic, calling her stimming "temper tantrums"'.
'They are not meeting my grandson’s needs and only allow him to come for 2 and a half hours a day out of a possible 6 and a half'.
'I'm moving my son from Welsh to English as the support was very limited'.
'The school is labelling my son as a naughty child and not looking at other ways to overcome the behaviour'.
'School Staff do not understand autism'.

Heledd Fychan AS: There are so many similar examples, which point to a crisis in terms of additional learning needs, with parents having to take their children out of education, change their household’s language or pay for private assessments and tutors. How can this happen in Wales in 2023 and when will the reforms change things for young people and children?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, the reforms that we have in place—and there is broad agreement that these are the right reforms to the system—are less than two years into a four-year transformation programme, so there is great change happening in the system. In considering the work that Estyn has done in looking at how the reforms are being introduced on the ground, the picture that they paint is slightly different to the one described by you today. I'm not for a second claiming that there aren't challenges of the kind that you mentioned, but, in looking at the national picture, it is far more balanced than what you describe, but I'm also not for one second saying that those things you describe are acceptable.
We are currently looking at evidence from stakeholders of how this is working on the ground. Estyn is doing further work for us to understand what's happening. It certain that there is more demand in the system, more young people are coming in in the early years with more complex challenges than we’ve seen in the past, and we need to understand why that is the case. The funding we’re providing to the system at the moment in terms of the RRRS employs some 2,400 additional staff or full-time equivalents, which creates a little more capacity in the system, and that should be spent in those periods where there are the greatest challenges, including the early years, but clearly there are challenges in the system. The system is doing its very best to cope with this. The funding source that I’ve provided has increased substantially this year. It’s up to around almost £26 million, up £5 million from last year, so resources are coming into the system. We accept there are challenges; we’re working with teachers and schools to ensure that we can respond to those challenges. One of the ways we’ve done so is to try and reduce the pressures on schools by extending the time it takes to be able to introduce the new reforms.

School Transport

Carolyn Thomas AS: 7. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Climate Change regarding the provision of school transport in line with the Learner Travel Measure following the bus transition fund announcement? OQ59779

Jeremy Miles AC: I meet regularly with the Minister and Deputy Minister for Climate Change to discuss a range of cross-portfolio issues, including learner travel. Senior education officials attend the weekly bus transition fund meetings to help shape and inform the development of our plans for services.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you for the answer, Minister. In north Wales, public transport is already used to deliver school transport and a quarter of the education budget is spent on transport, and costs have increased by 40 per cent due to inflationary pressures. It’s a daily battle for local authorities to ensure that there are enough operators already to make sure no pupil is left behind. And when I was a cabinet member at Flintshire, there were 450 different transport contracts; 350 were school. So, local expertise was really needed to ensure that provision could be delivered, and that cannot be overstated.
Mindful of that, Minister, through your conversations with the Minister for Climate Change, do you believe that transport being delivered on a regional level will guarantee a direct level of accountability, and that children will not get left behind at bus stops?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, that is absolutely not what we want to see, and the Member will not be surprised, obviously, to hear me say that. It’s a priority for us to make sure that learners can access schools. Obviously, the questions you put to the Deputy Minister earlier are a very good illustration of the very real challenges that we are facing at the moment. I think it is important for local authorities to work on a regional basis, because there are broader implications to the choices that are being made and it’s really important, in working on that regional footprint, that they can define the bus network in that larger area and decide what they wish to support in that space.
Obviously, there are changes happening in the system and there are changes happening in my own part of the world that are very, very unwelcome, but we are working very, very closely with the Deputy Minister’s team to make sure, as we approach the start of the new academic year, that we do everything that we can to make sure that our learners can get to school.

Single-Award GCSE in the Sciences

Jane Dodds AS: 8. Will the Minister make a statement on proposals from Qualifications Wales for a single-award GCSE in the sciences? OQ59784

Jeremy Miles AC: The new double-award sciences GCSE is designed to be taken by over 90 per cent of Welsh learners from 2025 onwards. Responding to consultation feedback that they received, Qualifications Wales are also creating a single award in the sciences for the small proportion of learners who might struggle to thrive following the double award.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you for the response.

Jane Dodds AS: As you've heard, it's a really big issue, isn't it, and both spokespeople from both of the opposition parties made that point. So, it is a continuing concern, and I just wondered if you might consider asking Qualifications Wales to pause their proposals whilst they really consolidate that consultation and look further at options. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Member for that. The proposal to introduce the single award was in fact done in response to consultation. So, the original proposal was the double award, and Qualifications Wales heard back that that would not meet the needs of the equivalent of around 6 per cent learners who currently take the applied science route. So, it's in response to consultation that this has been introduced.
I should be clear: it's my expectation and that of Qualifications Wales that the single award will be taken by a very small percentage of learners, and I think that is really important. If, I think, we saw that figure increasing, we would have concerns and would obviously wish to respond to that. But I think, given that this is the response to consultation, that is an important thing to take account of.
What I would say, though, and this is a very important point, perhaps for us all to recall, is this announcement by Qualifications Wales is one of two steps. This is describing the categories, if you like. The next step is describing the content of the new GCSEs, to make sure they are properly aligned to the Curriculum for Wales, and that is work that now will be led by the WJEC over the course of the next year, so that by September 2024, a year before these subjects start to be taught in schools, teachers will have a clear understanding of the content of the GCSEs.

Improving Financial Literacy

Samuel Kurtz MS: 9. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve financial literacy in schools in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire? OQ59790

Jeremy Miles AC: Financial knowledge is imperative to realising the four purposes of the Curriculum for Wales. Because of this, finance is a mandatory element of the mathematics and numeracy area of learning and experience, which schools in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire and throughout Wales should observe when designing their individual school curricula.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Diolch yn fawr, Weinidog. You're right, it is absolutely integral. But a recent report from the Money and Pensions Service revealed that half of all children in Wales say they have not been taught about money in school. As a result of this, they are now estimating that over 220,000 children in Wales don't possess the money skills they will need in adulthood—a really worrying statistic that I'm sure you will agree with.
Now, you do mention the new curriculum includes a requirement to teach financial literacy, and this is indeed welcome, but what reassurances can you provide that parts of the new curriculum, such as this, are given the same focus and attention in schools as other sections of the curriculum that are included in end-of-year tests? Diolch, Llywydd.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, this is a cross-curricular requirement, so it will be embedded throughout the curriculum, and it's obviously important that schools engage with this. In my experience, at least—. And by the way, I do recognise the figures that the Member is giving. In my experience, at least, schools have been able to find ways to use financial literacy to teach a whole range of things in the curriculum, actually. Maths is obviously one of them, but there are all sorts of other things. He will, I'm sure, have the same experience that I've had of going to schools in his constituency that run savings clubs, for example, and you've got young people who are learning to keep books of account and to manage money transactions. I think that's really important. He's absolutely correct to say that that level of financial literacy in our schools is obviously nowhere near where it needs to be, but that is why it's such an important part of the new curriculum, and schools will want to, I'm sure, recognising the point that he's making, be delivering that for young people.

I thank the Minister.

3. Topical Questions

The next items will be the topical questions, and the first question is to be answered by the Minister for Economy and is to be asked by Sarah Murphy.

Zimmer Biomet

Sarah Murphy AS: 1. Will the Minister make a statement in response to the announcement by Zimmer Biomet that it will cease manufacturing at its plant in Bridgend? TQ811

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. This is extremely disappointing news and will be deeply concerning for staff, their families, and the wider community. We are attempting to engage with the company to understand the rationale for this decision and to explore any options that exist to protect and potentially safeguard any of these jobs.

Sarah Murphy AS: Diolch, Minister. I know you and I were both appalled by the news last week of the possible closure of the Zimmer Biomet manufacturing factory in my constituency of Bridgend. Currently, the factory employs a total of 540 people from across Bridgend and the Ogmore valleys. I was deeply shocked at the nature of this announcement, with no prior warning given to myself or the Member for Ogmore, Huw Irranca-Davies, or Welsh Government, which demonstrates, I believe, a total disregard for the very real, human cost of this decision.
Over the last decade alone, the Welsh Government has already invested almost £1 million in the company as part of a large scheme to promote job creation within the region, and yet this is how funding by the Welsh people has been repaid, with lives devastated. All this, Minister, while Zimmer Biomet holds discussions on whether or not to open a new factory in Ireland. You only have to do a Google search at the moment, or go on their Facebook page, and you can see they're doing a recruitment drive for Ireland at the moment. It is clear to me that questions must be answered about what motivations prompted this announcement last week.
I am thankful for the work of my union, Unite Wales, that they have done so far in negotiations, and it is clear that jobs should be a priority in any discussions with both Welsh Government and UK Government. This being said, Minister, do you agree with me that this intervention by unions is critical? And what steps will the Welsh Government be taking in support of protecting as many jobs as possible in Bridgend? Diolch.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the follow-up question. I'm grateful to Sarah Murphy and Huw Irranca-Davies as the constituency Members who have the majority of the Zimmer Biomet workforce within their constituencies, as well as the physical location of the site. We had an opportunity to meet, together with Chris Elmore, who had also been in contact, and I'm pleased to see Chris Elmore's continuing to raise issues in the UK Parliament on this. We met together with Huw David, the leader of Bridgend, and Unite the Union the last week, because you're right, this was news that the workforce, the council, locally elected representatives and the Government were not aware of until the news had broken. That is not what we expect from companies that are investing in Wales and have taken support in the past from the Welsh Government to invest in their future.
I've written to the UK Government, to Kemi Badenoch, the Secretary of State for Department of Business and Trade, to clarify what engagement they have or haven't had with the company. It's unclear at this point what that is. We've heard some rather unhelpful rumours. I'm looking for clarity so I'm able to act on the basis of a complete understanding of what has happened. I've written to the senior vice-president of global operations and a Zimmer Biomet executive, and I'm due to speak to them tomorrow. I'll make sure that the constituency Members who've asked me for an update and have been engaged directly with the trade union and the council will be updated on that.
And you are right that Unite the Union are directly engaged. They're undertaking not just the engagement and the formal consultation, but I understand they have meetings ongoing over the next week or two. So, we'll carry on being engaged with the union to understand what it may be possible to do. And the reason why I don't think we should be entirely without hope here is that it's a long engagement period that's been announced of six months. They also don't propose for any of the reductions in headcount to take place until next year. So, there is a window to not simply understand what the company propose and why, but to see if there are opportunities to influence the decision that has been made, because this is a loyal and highly skilled workforce. These are good jobs in a part of the country where no-one will want to see them move, and it has a very big impact on the wider community.
We continue to provide support through our ReAct+ programme and through a range of other opportunities as well if people do lose their jobs. But our focus, as I know Sarah Murphy's is, as indeed is that of Unite the Union and the councillors and other elected representatives, is on what we can do to try to save the jobs rather than to accept that the jobs are going. But we will need to have more than one plan of action to do so. And as I said, I welcome the direct engagement of Sarah Murphy and her colleagues in a matter where will need to carry on working together with Unite to deliver the best outcome possible for the workforce and the wider community.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, the news is not only a huge blow for Sarah's and my constituents, but also a potential huge loss for our NHS. I'm intimately aware of Zimmer Biomet's products, having fitted hundreds, if not thousands of their Oxford partial knee, knee and hip implants. NHS orthopaedics is heavily reliant upon Zimmer Biomet products and the move of its manufacturing operation overseas threatens the creation of barriers as these vital medical devices become imported items. Minister, what discussions have you had with the Minister of health regarding the impact the decision will have upon NHS orthopaedics? I would also like to offer any help I can to you and Welsh Government, given my intimate knowledge of Zimmer Biomet and its products. Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the offer. When it comes to Zimmer Biomet's activities within the health service, which I'm aware of—I actually visited the site myself when I was the Minister for health after the previous economy Minister had invested money in the future of the plant—the challenge isn't the quality of the product or how it's used. We do understand that the overwhelming majority of items produced are then exported for use in Europe. I don't want to get into unhelpful speculation about what may lie behind the announcement, but we need to understand what this means for Zimmer Biomet and its products within the NHS, and not just here in Wales but in the other nations of the UK as well, and whether this is a straight commercial choice, whether it's to do with barriers to trade, or whether it's other reasons that lie behind it. That's part of the difficulty. The very real disappointment that I feel is that this is a company that has a relationship manager in the Welsh Government. It's received grant support to help invest in its future, we understand its products are well used and well regarded within the national health service, and so we would have expected a conversation where we had a clear understanding of what was possible, rather than having an announcement and then still needing to catch up. So, my conversation with the company will be important, together with continued engagement with the trade union and elected Members.

Luke Fletcher AS: As one of the six Members that represent Bridgend county in this Senedd, and, on a personal note, a Member whose old man once was employed by the factory, the news of the proposal was a shock, not just for us, but staff as well, and, of course, it's those staff members who now face uncertainty about their own futures. I wrote to the Minister last week, and I've yet to receive a reply, but I did note from the Trefnydd's response to Sarah Murphy yesterday that the Minister has already met with Sarah; he confirmed as well meetings with Huw Irranca-Davies and Chris Elmore MP just now. Perhaps he would extend the same to us as regional Members who also represent the area; we are also here to help, and we want to help.
I also asked the economy Minister last week in spokespersons' questions what would be his message to young people in Wales, my generation, about what their future holds. With respect, the answer he gave seemed to lack any urgency, and was quite frankly blasé, especially given that the reality has now reared its head again for my community. The reality is that this is another potential blow for Bridgend—from Ford to this. How can we expect young people to stay in our communities when good-quality jobs aren't available? Having spoken to some of the younger workers at the factory, some of whom I grew up with, they're finding it very difficult to be hopeful of a future in Bridgend. So, I'll ask the same question again: what assurances would you give to our young people in our area, and what will you do to keep high-quality jobs in the area for them?

Vaughan Gething AC: On the first point, I had direct contact collectively from the leader of the council, elected Members and Unite the Union, seeking a meeting immediately. I will deal with the Member's correspondence, and when I provide further updates, I'll make sure regional Members have that update.
When it comes to the wider economic future, I'm neither blasé nor sanguine about the challenges that our economy faces. I recognise this is a trying time for people in Bridgend, including young people in Bridgend who want to plan their future, but, with respect, I don't see any contrast in wanting to have a future where we recognise the real opportunities that do exist in sectors that will continue to grow over the next five and 10 years, whether it's in the renewables sector, whether it's in cyber and the wider tech sector, whether it's in a range of professional services, and, indeed, still within the advanced manufacturing sector. Overall, we know that the challenge is still finding workers who want to go into the sector in an area where there is a good career to be had. That is why Zimmer Biomet sticks out in the way that it does. I've regularly expressed my disappointment about not just the way they have announced matters, but the fact that they've not been prepared to have a conversation.
We'll be honest with young people about the work that we are doing to try to safeguard a better future, to be clear that our ambition is that young people will not need to get out of Wales to get on, but can plan a successful future here in Wales. The work we're doing to invest in skills, apprenticeships and the wider young person's guarantee, and the work we do on the sectors of the economy that will be the future of a better paid economy, are exactly for that purpose. With respect, I don't accept the Member's criticism; I would never be blasé about the challenges that workers and their families face, or, indeed, the opportunity and the challenges we face in making sure that young people have those opportunities to look forward to.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Like all Members here—and I agree with every word that Sarah Murphy and others have said about this—this was a complete shock. But we've gone through the full range of emotions of shock, of blind anger, I have to say, as well, because we were kept in the dark about this. Sarah Murphy and I were in there only recently; we both had the sweatshirts that proudly say on the back, 'Zimmer Biomet, made in Bridgend'. Not a word was said to us that this company was in any difficulty, was facing any challenging thoughts about moving elsewhere. But we do know that Zimmer Biomet listen to every word that's spoken, because when we raised this in the interviews, I had a response from Zimmer Biomet, Minister, which said:
'Zimmer Biomet announced a proposal to cease manufacturing in Bridgend, Wales. We have not yet reached a decision. We commit to actively participate in the consultation.'
So, let's take Zimmer Biomet at their words. If this is a genuine consultation, including on alternatives to losing these vital highly skilled jobs, with, genuinely, people who have worked at this plant for 10, 20, 30, 40 years—they've gone back decades, and their families, right across the region—I say to Zimmer Biomet, 'Engage with the Welsh Government, engage with the UK Government, engage with us. Let us in to the reasons behind this and how we can help, because if you don't, it is an absolute kick in the face not only for the people and the families who work there and the communities, but also for the area.' Bridgend has a proud reputation in manufacturing, and it will continue to have, but we need Zimmer Biomet to play their part as well.
Minister, we do not have access to all the discussions that are going on. I simply ask you: will you keep all the Senedd Members here updated? Because Zimmer Biomet have told us that discussions will be through you rather than through us, so please do keep us updated. And, genuinely, if there's anything we can do—and I say that to Zimmer Biomet as well—to keep these jobs, that's where our focus has to be first, as well as focusing on the support of employability and the local council in supporting the workers, if the worst comes to the worst. Diolch yn fawr.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, and thank you for the way you engaged with both Sarah Murphy and others, including Unite the Union, around the announcement, and in the public statements that you and Sarah Murphy continue to make. I think it is helpful to be clear about the view of elected Members, people that Zimmer Biomet have engaged with in the past.
As I indicated in response to Sarah Murphy's initial question and supplementary, I have a meeting with one of the senior vice-presidents of Zimmer Biomet tomorrow. I'm looking forward to an honest and constructive conversation. I think it is important that they're straight with us about what they really do or don't propose, and I will continue to make the case for these jobs to stay in Bridgend. I'll continue to engage with you and with Unite the Union, and I will obviously keep you and other Members informed of the nature of those conversations, and share as much information as I can. But I think it is a genuine positive, for Members across the Chamber, to retain a focus on Zimmer Biomet doing the right thing and engaging properly and fully with the Government of Wales, and, indeed, in making sure that we're aware of any other engagements they may have with the UK Government, too, that may have a role to play in securing the jobs at Zimmer Biomet.

I thank the Minister.
Before I call the next topical question for the Minister for health, I want to take this opportunity to provide guidance to Members on questions concerning the UK COVID-19 public inquiry.
The inquiry, as we all know, is one that's been set up to examine, consider and report on preparations and the response to the COVID-19 pandemic in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and to learn lessons for the future. Four modules have already opened and further modules are expected. The inquiry is expected to run for some considerable time.
In determining whether to accept this question relating to the inquiry, I have balanced two aspects. The first is the right of any Member to ask questions about matters within the responsibilities of Welsh Ministers, and the second is the practice of not making statements in the Senedd that would be prejudicial to the work of a public inquiry.
There may be circumstances in which Ministers are unable to respond in detail, particularly where questions relate to inquiry modules that have opened but have not yet concluded their work. Members may wish to take this into account as they frame questions relating to the COVID-19 inquiry over the coming months and years.
In that context, I will now ask Mabon ap Gwynfor to ask his question to the Minister.

The UK COVID-19 inquiry

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I thank the Llywydd for that guidance in posing this question.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 2. Will the Minister make a statement following the evidence given by the First Minister and Minister for Economy relating to the lack of pandemic preparedness in Wales at the UK Covid-19 inquiry yesterday? TQ819

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. Yesterday, witnesses from Wales gave evidence as part of module 1 of the COVID-19 UK public inquiry regarding resilience and preparedness. A transcript provides a full record of the evidence that was given.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I thank the Minister for that response.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: The evidence that we have heard over the last two days shows clearly that we were badly underprepared for a pandemic. We learned that documents had not been updated for a decade, and independent scientific advice was not always followed by Ministers in the pre-pandemic period. It became clear that were woefully ill-equipped, with not enough personal protective equipment, inadequate isolation rooms, and so much more. So, we know these weaknesses that were in the system—they were evidenced yesterday—but we don't know why. Both the First Minister and the then health Minister admitted to many of these weaknesses, and that candour is commendable, but surely if we are to fully learn the lessons, then we need to understand the whole context. How did we find ourselves in this position? The evidence raises more questions, and we all, especially the bereaved families, deserveto know the answers, especially if we are to prepare for any future pandemic.
In light of this and the fact that so many questions are now left unanswered, questions that a Senedd committee will neither have the resources nor the capacity to go after, does the Minister now agree that it's time we had an independent inquiry in Wales to get the answers and allow us to better prepare for any future pandemic?

Eluned Morgan AC: The inquiry is continuing to take oral evidence as part of module 1 about resilience and preparedness. As I said, the transcript is available of all the oral evidence given by witnesses. What is clear is that the inquiry has not yet reached any conclusions. I know that the inquiry is going to consider oral evidence from Welsh witnesses alongside the evidence from other witnesses it's heard from over the last 15 days, together with a lot of written evidence it's received from a wide range of witnesses.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Could I agree with the sentiments that have just been conveyed about the need for the Wales-wide independent public inquiry? I appreciate the Labour benches have voted that down and we have to now move to the committee that's been set up here in the Senedd. But one thing that came from the evidence that was brought forward by the Government Ministers yesterday was that your predecessor had not read the papers when it came to COVID preparedness or pandemic preparedness. In fact, many journalists said that the Minister was clearly floundering—those were their words, not mine—in his responses. Can you assure the Senedd this afternoon, Minister, that you have, in becoming health Minister here in the Senedd, read your papers, you understand what is required, and that we are in the best place to be prepared should a future pandemic hit us on the scale that COVID-19 hit us?

Eluned Morgan AC: I cannot and will not provide a running commentary on the evidence the inquiry is taking, and I'm not going to prejudge or speculate on any of the conclusions the inquiry may come to at the end of this module. As you know, we have got this special purpose committee and I have read the papers in relation to that.

I thank the Minister.

4. 90-second Statements

The 90-second statements are next. Today's statement is from Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams MS: Diolch, Llywydd. Clwb Rygbi Trebanos is celebrating its one hundred and twenty-fifth anniversary. In the first half of its long history of being at the heart of its community in Cwm Tawe, the club played an active role in local competitions. One of its earliest cup finals was recorded in 1925 when they played Swansea Harbour at the famous St Helen's ground. The game went to extra time but, unfortunately, Trebanos would go on to lose. Apparently, the referee at the time had to go to work at 10 p.m. so the match was drawn to a quick conclusion.
During the days of the great depression, many locals left Trebanos in the Swansea valley in search of work, but the remaining team would train every day, and though these were difficult times they produced top-quality rugby players, which included William Bowen, John Lewis, Mel Lloyd, Elwyn Davies, Danny Hopkin and Aubrey Hyde—all who experienced hardship, but each of them went on to play for Swansea RFC. And Trebanos RFC has kept producing players who achieve success: Bleddyn Bowen, Robert Jones, Arwel Thomas, and arguably the most recognisable blue scrum-capped son, Justin Tipuric, who achieved 93 caps for Wales before retiring from international rugby recently.
The most recent club success has been winning the championship plate. But for a rugby club to stand the test of time, demonstrate its worth as a huge asset, both to the national game and to its community, this is a great achievement—to be still at the beating heart of the community—and I wish them all the success for the future. And I'm proud that my son, Dewi, plays for the youth team, and maybe one day, he will join the long and proud tradition of Trebanos stars who are heroes of their valleys and their nation.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Sioned Williams MS: Congratulations to Trebanos RFC and thank you for your immeasurable contribution to the Swansea valley and Wales.

I thank the Member.

5. Motion to note the annual report on the Senedd Commission's Official Languages Scheme for 2022–23

Item 5 has been postponed.

6. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv)—Epilepsy services

So, we'll turn to item 6 today, which is the Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv) on epilepsy services. And I call on Luke Fletcher to move the motion.

Motion NDM8273 Luke Fletcher
Supported by Darren Millar, Delyth Jewell, Heledd Fychan, Huw Irranca-Davies, Jane Dodds, Jayne Bryant, Joel James, Joyce Watson, Llyr Gruffydd, Mark Isherwood, Mike Hedges, Peredur Owen Griffiths, Rhun ap Iorwerth, Sioned Williams, Tom Giffard
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes:
a) that across Wales, the prevalence of epilepsy is 1 per cent (approximately 32,000 people with epilepsy), with localised variation linked to levels of deprivation;
b) that in Wales, there are 11.5 whole time equivalent epilepsy specialist nurses (ESNs), which equates to a ratio of 1 nurse to every 2,823 patients;
c) that the Steers report (2008) recommends a ratio of 300 patients to one ESN, which would equate to a total of 107 ESNs in Wales.
2. Calls for the Welsh Government to:
a) support measures to reduce current waiting times for patients and service users accessing epilepsy services;
b) support health professionals in Wales, by ensuring the levels of staffing across the health boards of Wales are appropriately resourced to achieve and maintain sustainability, patient safety, and quality of service.

Motion moved.

Luke Fletcher AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to thank the Business Committee for selecting this motion for debate, the Members who supported it, but more importantly, I'd like to thank Epilepsy Action Cymru for consistently raising the concerns of those who live with epilepsy with myself and with other Members.
Now, I don't have epilepsy myself but through Epilepsy Action’s advocacy, I have learnt much about it. I’d like to start by telling you the story of Becci Smart. Some of you would have already come across Becci—she’s been an avid campaigner on this issue, as well as on women’s health issues, for some time. She actually joins us today in the gallery. Becci was diagnosed with epilepsy at 17, though she probably lived with it since she was six. There lies the first issue, she tells us. To get a diagnosis, you need to have two or more seizures. To get to her diagnosis, living in England at the time, she was seen within six weeks. Today, in Wales, the wait is now 22 months.
Becci is not alone in Wales. There are higher rates of epilepsy in both the number of new cases and the number of people with epilepsy than the rest of the UK. Eleven people in every 1,000 have epilepsy in Wales, compared to nine in 1,000 in England. Again, when it comes to new cases in Wales, there are 55 new cases in every 100,000 people in one year, compared to the figure of 37 in every 100,000 in England. Dirprwy Lywydd, epilepsy is more common than we realise.
Becci now, of course, has a better understanding of her epilepsy due, in large part, to a specialist nurse. The upside of living in Wales, as she says, is that she can receive a response within 24 hours to any question she has from her nurse. But like many, as demand increases and the number of nurses remains the same, she worries whether the rate of response will remain. And there lies another issue. The number of specialist nurses or ESNs is woefully small.
In Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board, it is estimated that five ESNs are needed; there are currently zero. In Swansea Bay University Health Board, it is estimated that 11 are needed; there are, in actual fact, only four. In order to meet in person or to have an appointment, Becci needs to travel from Coytrahenin Bridgend to Morriston in Swansea. That means organising childcare and travelling via bus and train, because, of course, Becci is unable to drive due to her epilepsy. This can sometimes take over three hours. That is why we wish to see our services reflect the challenges faced by those living with epilepsy.
Our motion has two specific calls on Welsh Government. Firstly, Welsh Government should support measures to reduce current waiting times for patients and service users accessing epilepsy services. And secondly, Welsh Government should support health professionals in Wales by ensuring that the levels of staffing across the health boards of Wales are appropriately resourced to achieve and maintain sustainability, patient safety and quality of service.
Dirprwy Lywydd, I know that a number of Members in the Chamber today have a number of points they would like to make and I look forward to hearing other Members’ contributions as well as hearing from the Minister. Diolch yn fawr.

Tom Giffard AS: I am pleased to be contributing to this debate today and I thank Luke Fletcher for bringing it to the Chamber. And the reason for the debate, I think, is key, because of how all-encompassing epilepsy can be for the more than 1 per cent of our population who suffer with it. Those of us who have friends or family who suffer, or have met constituents with epilepsy, will know that it's no exaggeration to say that it's something that can easily take over every facet of your life. And that's why it's crucial to know that support is there for people who suffer with epilepsy when they need it. But unfortunately, sufferers have to put up with the difficult reality of the situation on the ground.
NICE suggests that waiting times for routine epilepsy appointments should take no longer than a fortnight, but the reality is that not one health board in Wales is meeting that target. The Steers report from 2008, which is referenced in the debate motion today, suggests there should be a ratio of one epilepsy specialist nurse for every 300 patients in Wales. The reality is that we have one ESN for every 2,823 patients instead. And whilst epilepsy is estimated at a cost of £2 billion a year to our NHS, we should be ahead of the curve in research funding as to how to treat it. But the reality is that we're spending just £21 per person on epilepsy research, compared to £97 for dementia and £234 for Parkinson's disease.
So the point of my contribution today is this: I know how difficult it is to be a health Minister, there are lots of extremely worthy causes competing every day for a slice of a very limited-sized pie; I understand that pressure. But if we take one question away, Minister, from today's debate, let it be this: when will epilepsy sufferers in Wales be treated at least equitably with those suffering from other conditions? And when will the reality of the experience for those who suffer with it resemble the reality of the provision available to them? Thank you.

Mike Hedges AC: I was very pleased to support this debate. Until my mother had a brain tumour, I had no personal experience of epilepsy. Her brain tumour led to epilepsy, and it came as a shock to our family and to her. And actually seeing somebody you know and love going through an epileptic fit is entirely different to seeing a stranger. We all say, 'Yes, we care about other people', but when it's actually somebody who you know and love going through it, it brings it certainly home. It certainly brought the problem of epilepsy into focus for me.
I am pleased the Welsh Government is committed to ensuring that anyone with epilepsy in Wales should have access to the best possible care. I welcome the addition of neurological conditions, including epilepsy, to the national dashboard that, by the way, is monitoring services, identifying inequalities and improving care. I urge the Welsh Government to continue to work with others to improve services for all those with neurological conditions across Wales, including those with epilepsy, and including those—which is something I raised yesterday—with epilepsy and something else, another neurological condition.
I welcome the recently published quality statement for neurological conditions, which sets out the outcomes and standards we expect health boards to achieve in delivering those services. It is important that health boards and trusts that have a responsibility for planning and delivering services to those with neurological conditions, including epilepsy, undertake population needs analysis to establish required levels of staffing, including epilepsy specialist nurses. Epilepsy is a common, fluctuating, and often invisible condition. Its episodic and varying nature means that conventional methods of service delivery are not easily adopted. And as Luke Fletcher said, you can have one event, you may wait several years for the second event, in which case, people don't have you down as somebody suffering from epilepsy.
Across Wales, the prevalence is around 1 per cent of the population, which is about 32,000 people, with localised variations linked to levels of deprivation. Optimal use of anti-seizure medication can control seizures in up to 70 per cent of patients, but not for the other 30 per cent of patients. Around 52 per cent of patients achieve sustained seizure freedom, but with 30 per cent of patients becoming resistant to all treatments. This shortfall in success of treatment with anti-seizure medication can lead to lots of things: resistance to disease; poor tolerability; patient adherence to other medication; lifestyle factors; or, in some cases, misdiagnosis. Those people with seizures that cannot be controlled with existing treatment continue to face additional risks due to their epilepsy. Each year, epilepsy has led to over 100,000 unplanned hospital admissions, and 1,000 early deaths in the UK. As many as 40 per cent of these deaths could be prevented.
There has been progress. In December 2021, the all-Wales adult first seizure and epilepsy management pathway was launched, for use by GPs and in emergency departments, for people with an existing epilepsy diagnosis, as well as those who experienced their first seizure. The open access model for epilepsy clinics has been adopted across Wales. This model encourages patients to take ownership of their epilepsy care and reduces the number of appointments, providing families with a point of contact via the epilepsy nurse specialist to discuss problems as they arise. The important thing is that there isn't enough of them. It's quite easy to have a policy saying that everybody should be able to access their epilepsy nurse specialist, but we need enough of them so they can actually access them when they need to.
Improving psychological support for people with neurological conditions has been prioritised as an area of focus by the Welsh Government, for which I thank them. The epilepsy dashboard was launched in February 2023. The neurological conditions implementation group, as the former national clinical lead for neurological conditions, worked closely with the value-based healthcare team and Digital Health and Care Wales to have a data dashboard for epilepsy, which was launched in February of this year. The dashboard will support the optimum method of care and enable better understanding of epilepsy services within secondary care in Wales. This will include consideration of appropriateness of regional provision.
I've been contacted by a constituent who had read with interest about the new fibre optic laser therapy for epilepsy as an alternative to therapy. Their grandson has uncontrolled epilepsy, and his doctors are now talking about surgery. Is it intended to look at the success of laser therapy, or the lack of success of laser therapy, because there's no shortage in any health condition if somebody comes along with an expensive way of not solving it? But if it does work, will it be rolled out in Wales if it does prove effective, so that people like my constituent can benefit?

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Luke, for bringing this debate before the Senedd.

Delyth Jewell AC: Epilepsy has been a recognised presence in human society for centuries. The father of medicine, Hippocrates, first identified its link with the brain in the fifth century BC. It affected famous figures like Julius Caesar and Vincent van Gogh, and the reason that I'm setting out that history is because it just seems so unbelievable that a condition that has been around and noted for centuries should still be so fundamentally misunderstood as a condition. And the needs of people affected by it can still be so ill-met; they are complex, they are wide ranging. Today, so many of us have been reflecting on the state of healthcare in Wales, on this important milestone of a day—the seventy-fifth anniversary of the NHS. It's a sad reality that, in 2023, the provision of care for people living with epilepsy is inadequate.
Now, we've heard the figures rehearsed already from a number of Members—the fact that more than 1 per cent of the entire population of Wales is living with epileptic conditions. Behind all of those figures, whether we're talking about how many people are affected, or how long waiting lists are, behind those figures, they are people who are probably frightened, they're people who—. Because, if you have epilepsy, it will involve you—. It's a loss of control, particularly, if you're—well, I was going to say 'particularly if you're young', but, actually, for anyone of any age, it's going to be a frightening experience. There's stigma associated with it, because of this lack of understanding, and so, all of those figures will kind of be masking people's suffering in those ways.
At present, we've heard already, there are only 11.5 full-time epilepsy specialist nurses in Wales, as Tom has been pointing out, and how that does not compare favourably in any way with the provision of ESNs—these epilepsy specialist nurses—in Scotland. Not one of Wales's health boards has the requisite number of these nurses to cater for the population. Cardiff is five ESNs short of the recommended level; the shortfall in Swansea bay is seven; Powys has no dedicated neurology service whatsoever. The inevitable consequences of this stark lack of capacity is these high waiting times that have been referred to for routine appointments. And that has become the norm in Wales, and so, this suffering and this lack of control, and this fear that people will be going through will have become the norm. And it's something that, when we're noting all of these figures, we should please try and keep that in mind. NICE guidelines recommend a waiting time of no longer than two weeks for patients with a suspected first seizure. The fact is that that is not being met by any health board; in many areas, people are waiting for over a year to see their neurologist.
Dirprwy Lywydd, recent research has indicated that there is a correlation between epilepsy and climate change, with higher incidences of seizures associated with hot temperatures, so that just seems to be bringing even more urgency to this need for there to be more of a reliance on specialist care, because that is going to become even more prevalent because of these external forces and external factors.
Now, I'll just close by saying how important it is, yes, that we scale up Wales's provision of epilepsy care as a matter of urgency, and this debate, I hope, will help to bring this forward on the agenda, and I do thank Luke, again, for doing that. But—

Delyth Jewell AC: —let us all bear in mind once again those people, particularly young people, who are going through this: how much fear, perhaps, they are experiencing, and how important it is for us to ensure that the support is available in schools too, so that other young people can understand what is happening to their friend and they can help them too, because it's so important that people don't feel isolated with something like this. But thank you very much.

Jane Dodds AS: I just want to follow on from what Delyth has said. I didn't realise that Delyth was going to talk about the issue of how important it is that we all know how to work with somebody who's having an episode of epilepsy, because my first experience was not that. I remember I was 14, I was watching Wrexham FC in the Kop, and a person very close to me had an episode of epilepsy and nobody knew what to do at all. People just moved away and, really, just waited for the people who were the first aiders, the St John's, to come and help. I went home and I was really, really struck by this and upset and traumatised, because I didn't know what it was, I didn't know what to do; I felt useless.
And really, following on from what you said there, Delyth, there is a sense of stigma, a sense of shame, attached to this, and, actually, we need to make sure that we're talking about it, and having this debate is part of that. In fact, I'm very grateful to Luke for bringing this and I'm really pleased to support this. I would also like to add that we need to look at education and awareness in our schools, as you've said, Delyth, and further afield. I would like to see it as part of the basic first aid course, because we should all know how to respond to somebody who's having an episode of epilepsy.
Just some facts: we know—and Mike has touched on this as well—there are 1,000 early deaths across the UK linked to epilepsy, of which 40 per cent of these deaths could be prevented. We know that epilepsy can be part of a wider configuration of physical issues for somebody who has maybe a disability, and so to have epilepsy on top of that is a particular stigma and a particular difficulty. According to a survey from the Neurological Alliance, 38 per cent of respondents stated that they waited 12 months or more for a diagnosis after that first episode. We know that delays to treatment and care in Wales, as well as a lack of access to appropriate neurologists and mental health support, are creating this inequity, which we've heard from Tom about as well.
Neurology has remained an under-funded, low priority service, and a significant shortage of staff, in particular, as we've heard, the epilepsy support nurses, means we are failing to provide the patient-centred care that people with epilepsy so deserve. As Delyth said, my local health board of Powys does not even have a dedicated neurology nurse, with people having to travel out of the area to access those services. By adopting this patient-centred open access model and a dedicated co-ordinator role, we can improve clinical outcomes and those patient experiences. We need to empower and fund our health boards and provide them with the resources that they need to recruit and to retain those vital epilepsy specialist services to meet what really is a minimum standard and minimum service that those with epilepsy really deserve. Epilepsy should not remain an invisible disability. We cannot afford to ignore this problem any longer. We must talk about it, we must debate it—which is what this is part of—and we must address the issues that people with epilepsy are affected by. Thank you—diolch yn fawr iawn.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: I'm grateful to Luke for bringing this debate this afternoon, and I’m very grateful for the opportunity to take part in this debate, as it resonates with me on a personal level. My aunt suffered from epilepsy from a teenager onwards, and my enduring memory of Auntie Mair is she was wonderfully loud, and, yes, she was brilliant. And just remembering childhood memories of tablets and, now and again, her having a fit and us children being moved out of the room. So, it’s a bit of that stigma you were talking about of, 'Don’t let the children see', and that sort of thing. But she kept working full-time as long as she could. Eventually, she had to give up her job. She ended up having major surgery to alleviate some of the more problematic and severe epileptic fits, which helped to a certain extent, but they did not eradicate them. Unfortunately, many years later, she ended up having a seizure that led to her having a fall and major head trauma, and she passed away shortly afterwards.
During the inquest, it was found that the ambulance service had not appreciated the severity of the problem, and had deprioritised the call. I was later told that, even if the ambulance had been outside when that accident occurred, it would not have saved her life, because of the nature of the trauma. It is, however, an indication of how seriously—or not so—epilepsy is sometimes taken by the emergency services. I was concerned to read the evidence from Epilepsy Action Cymru about the inconsistencies in treatment across Wales, and the higher prevalence of epilepsy in more deprived areas. In my region some of the poorest communities in Wales can be found, and I’d like to see people with epilepsy from these places treated just as well as somebody with epilepsy from a more affluent area. Health inequalities such as this must be identified and eradicated swiftly. Is that not the foundation stone of the NHS, which we so much cherish and we hold so dear, and celebrate its birthday today?
I therefore support all the recommendations, particularly the one to appropriately resource epilepsy services to achieve and maintain sustainability, patient safety and quality of service across the country. Diolch yn fawr.

Sioned Williams MS: I’m pleased to have supported the motion, and I thank Luke Fletcher, my fellow Member for South Wales West, for bringing this debate before the Senedd. It was good to hear you talking about Becci, who has a close connection with me—I mentor Becci as part of the ‘Equal Power, Equal Voice’ programme, and she has done some excellent work in campaigning to ensure that we do discuss epilepsy and that treatment and support is improved.
I would first of all like to discuss the number of people and the percentage of people who have epilepsy in Wales, and the fact that Wales has a higher prevalence of epilepsy in terms of new cases, and in terms of the numbers of people who have epilepsy, as compared to the rest of the UK. In Wales, as we’ve heard, 11 in every 1,000 people have epilepsy, as compared with nine in every 1,000 in England, and in Wales there are 55 new cases in every 100,000 people a year, compared to 37 for every 100,000 in England.
The motion does highlight, like many other conditions, that research does show that there is a link between more deprived areas and a higher prevalence of epilepsy. What’s to account for this higher number of people living with epilepsy in Wales is perhaps the fact that we are a nation with higher levels of poverty, far too high, which has a real detrimental impact on the health of our population. People in the most deprived areas of the UK are more than a third more likely to suffer epilepsy, as compared to those in the most prosperous areas. But we need more research to fully understand the implications of these statistics.So, what is the Government's understandingof the data that is available and is being gathered in this area?
So, the number of cases of epilepsy is around 1 per cent in Wales, with some 32,000 adults living with the condition, according to the latest figures—a substantial number, and a number that's higher than the rest of the UK. But, as we've heard, the number of ESNs is very low and is inequitable across Wales, with the number equating to one nurse for every 2,823 patients. I live in the Swansea valley in the Swansea Bay University Health Board area. Six thousand individuals are living with epilepsy in that health board area—there are four specialist epilepsy nurses. In Scotland, there is one ESN for every 1,106 people living with epilepsy.
The picture is entirely inconsistent throughout Wales in terms of the number of ESNs for people living with the condition. What is consistent is that the rate is far lower, over 50 per cent lower in almost all cases, in terms of the number of nurses in relation to those living with epilepsy in our health boards. So, what are the plans to tackle this, Minister? The statistics do suggest that we need to take action on this at a national level and have a national strategy, if our health service, which we have been celebrating today, is to meet the need and support those who are living with this condition in Wales.

Mark Isherwood AC: Of course, I fully, strongly, support this motion, and I was pleased to add my name to the list of supporters, but it does feel a bit like groundhog day. In 2016 and again in 2017, speaking in the Senedd, I said that some areas of Wales do not have access to epilepsy services, such as epilepsy nurses, advocacy or training services, including specialist health or education provision. I said that parents of children with epilepsy and complex needs find it more difficult to access appropriate education for their child, and are more likely to have difficulties with transport, medical supervision, delivery of first aid or medication than other families. I also noted that adults with epilepsy and complex needs find difficulty getting services that meet their needs.
Speaking at Epilepsy Wales’s 2019 epilepsy awareness event in the Senedd, I noted that 40 per cent of overall deaths and 59 per cent of child deaths as a direct result of epilepsy could potentially be avoided through better management of the condition. Four years on, Epilepsy Action Cymru state that the number of epilepsy specialist nurses in Wales is, quote, 'woefully short'. Surely the time has come to turn well-meaning words into real action. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services, Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much to Luke Fletcher for raising this very important issue in the Siambr today, and thank you to every Member who has contributed in the debate. I have listened very carefully to everyone's contributions, and a number of important points have been made.

Eluned Morgan AC: Epilepsy, as many people have said, is a serious but common neurological condition that, as we’ve heard, can be frightening, unpredictable and massively disruptive to people’s lives. Around 1 per cent of the population of Wales have epilepsy, as many have stated, and approximately 1,500 people in Wales will develop epilepsy every year. Now, in the time that I have this afternoon, I want to highlight some important measures that are already in place to support people with epilepsy, and some of the measures that Welsh Government are taking to support this.
Now, since 2017, £1 million of funding annually has been allocated to the neurological conditions implementation group, NCIG. That is to support the development and implementation of equitable—so many of you've talked about the importance of equity—high-quality services for all people living with neurological conditions, including epilepsy. Now, we're going to continue to support this activity going forward, via the newly established NHS Executive.
Welsh Government published a quality statement for neurological conditions in November last year, which sets out the outcomes and the standards that we expect health boards to achieve in delivering those services. That was co-produced with NCIG, the neurological conditions implementation group, and the 20-plus third sector partners represented in the NCIG by the Wales Neurological Alliance. This includes representatives from Epilepsy Action and Epilepsi Cymru.
Through its support of the NCIG, the NHS executive will ensure that the quality attributes set out in the quality statement are embedded into service planning and delivery through the development of service specifications and care pathways. In December 2021, the all-Wales adult first seizure and epilepsy management pathway was launched. This clinical pathway was developed through collaboration with NCIG clinicians and also third sector partners. The pathway is used by GPs and emergency departments for people with an existing epilepsy diagnosis and those who are experiencing a seizure for the first time. So, that pathway you were all asking for does exist. The pathway helps to structure and to navigate care for people with epilepsy and aims to improve access to epilepsy services and drive improvements in the quality of those services, because improving the outcomes and the experiences of people with epilepsy is at the heart of the pathway.

Eluned Morgan AC: Epilepsy Action Cymru's statement gives a useful picture of epilepsy services in Wales. Their report notes that an open-access care model is of great benefit in providing access immediately to people to epilepsy services if their situation should change or if they want to discuss their concerns. This decreases the need for an outpatient appointment and decreases waiting times and hospital admissions.

Eluned Morgan AC: I'm therefore encouraged to hear that all six health boards are providing specialist epilepsy services across Wales, and they have adopted the open-access model.
In February this year, the epilepsy dashboard, as we've heard, was launched. That was developed through a successful collaboration, again, between NCIG, the value-based healthcare team and Digital Health and Care Wales. The dashboard will support better understanding of epilepsy services in Wales and provide valuable information going forward to inform planning and resource allocation to support the optimal model of care, including regional approaches of service provision where that is appropriate.
As the dashboard accrues more information over time, it's also going to provide a way of monitoring services, identifying areas for improvement and highlighting inequalities and unwarranted variation in care. We know there are a number of epilepsy specialist nurses across Wales working hard to deliver essential care and support to people with epilepsy, and we recognise that their contribution is invaluable.
I've noted the recommendation from this report of a ratio of 300 patients to one ESN, which would equate to a requirement for another 95 whole-time equivalent ESNs in Wales. I've got to tell you we are in a time of financial difficulty. We've continued to invest in the sustainability of our NHS workforce. For the ninth consecutive year, funding to support health professional education and training in Wales has increased—£281 million will be invested in 2023-24, and that equates to an 8 per cent increase from the previous year. So, I expect health boards to ensure they plan for high-quality, safe and sustainable services that meet the needs of their local population, that their workforce then reflects that model and that they resource accordingly.
We know that the NHS is facing multiple challenges, and I don't underestimate these. We've set out clear aims within the neurological conditions quality statement. Some of the other measures I've described are key enablers to achieving these aims. To be clear, it's now the responsibility of the health boards to plan and deliver their services accordingly.

Eluned Morgan AC: I'd like to assure the Siambr that improving outcomes for people with neurological conditions such as epilepsy is a priority for the Welsh Government. Thank you very much.

I call on Luke Fletcher to reply to the debate.

Luke Fletcher AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. As every Member always does start their closing speech, I'd like to thank those Members who contributed to this debate and thank the Minister as well for her response.
First, I'd like to thank Mike and Peredur specifically for sharing in the debate personal stories, and Delyth, of course, for reminding us, actually, the importance of sharing those personal stories. I mean, figures like 1 per cent don't necessarily sound particularly large, but we often forget that behind these figures there are people and the challenges they face. The stories shared today are vitally important for us in this debate to understand those challenges.
Delyth and Mark, I can always rely on both of you to teach us some history in a debate. Delyth, you touched on how it's a frightening experience for those who are living with epilepsy, and I come back to Becci on this point; it's the anxiety and the fear that comes with epilepsy that makes ESNs vitally important. They provide an important service, both physically and mentally. Becci and others know that through the support they receive, they feel somewhat safer, so it's vitally important that we ensure everyone has equal access to ESNs.
Jane, you actually raised an incredibly important point: I wouldn't know what to do if someone had an episode of epilepsy right next to me, and I think, actually, there's a challenge in there for all of us in the Chamber. I now know what will be our next team training day in my office, and I hope that other Members will consider providing training on what to do if someone has an episode. After all, we deal with thousands of constituents every day, and some of those will undoubtedly have epilepsy when they come into our office.
Sioned and Pred raised something I also found deeply concerning, and that is the potential link between deprivation and epilepsy. It needs, of course, more research, as Sioned pointed out, but if there is a link, I think we need to find that link and we need to sort it as a matter of priority.
Of course, I've already thanked the Minister; I'll thank her again for her response to the debate. It's welcome very much to hear the Government will continue supporting epilepsy services, but of course, we've heard today a number of Members raise concerns. Mark rightly reminded us of the number of times concerns have been raised in the Chamber, as well as Epilepsy Action Cymru reminding us of some of those concerns. I would welcome the opportunity to meet with the Minister after this debate at some point. I appreciate that this is a really complex field of medicine, and the difficulty she will have in conveying everything in the time that she has in the Chamber. I'd very much appreciate a meeting.
Of course, Tom touched on the cost of epilepsy on the NHS, which, according to Epilepsy Action Cymru, is around £2 billion a year. And of course, as a Minister in the health portfolio, there are so many competing priorities. But that cost of £2 billion can be alleviated by the funding of more ESNs. It's cost effective, not just actually in a financial sense, but actually in the time of neurology—. I can’t get the word out. Neurologists. I think that was close enough. It's about them actually freeing up the capacity themselves, so saving money on that front as well. Evidently, concerns are there, and I think we must work to meet them and resolve them together.
I'd end by bringing up the point about actually what is behind these figures. It’s people, at the end of the day, who are dealing with the challenges that they’re facing because of epilepsy. It's the fear and anxiety. So, behind those figures, when we talk about the 1 per cent, when we talk about the number of people who are dealing with epilepsy, let us always remember that actually, there’s a lot more to a figure than meets the eye; it’s the people, the challenges they face. And if we are here for one thing, it's to represent those people and to ensure that they can live their life as best they can. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Debate on the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee Report—'The legislative framework that supports Welsh-medium education provision'

Item 7 this afternoon is a debate on the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee's report, 'The legislative framework that supports Welsh-medium education provision'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Delyth Jewell.

Motion NDM8314 Delyth Jewell
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the report of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee ‘The legislative framework that supports Welsh-medium education provision’, which was laid in the Table Office on 19 May 2023.

Motion moved.

Delyth Jewell AC: It’s a pleasure to open this debate on the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee’s inquiry. I’m grateful to the committee members and the committee team for all of their work.

Delyth Jewell AC: This is the first inquiry held jointly by different committees during the sixth Senedd, and two rapporteurs from the Children, Young people and Education Committee took part in the inquiry. I'm very grateful to Sioned and Buffy for their work, and to the committee in general.
I wish to say from the outset how much we welcomed the recent consultation process undertaken by the Welsh Government on the Welsh language education Bill. Part of the committee's objective with this inquiry was to support and provide evidence to enhance that process. We accept that there are some elements that the Government cannot fully commit to in its response to the report following the completion of the consultation process. We also welcomed the First Minister's commitment on 27 June when he announced that the Welsh language education Bill would be introduced during the year 2023-24.
So, where are we? I will turn to our main recommendations. First, the importance of ensuring consistency. It became clear to us that the level and variation of ambition were different in different WESPs across Wales, and this was a cause of concern. Rhieni dros Addysg Gymraeg told us that the Welsh Language must be at the heart of education planning locally, not just considered as some kind of add-on.
In addition to this, we also proposed that an independent body, possibly Estyn, should monitor and review the WESPs. Whilst the shift from a three-year to a 10-year system was welcomed by witnesses, the committee remained of the view that the current system is weak. As a result, it was recommended that the Government should give an independent body a stronger role to monitor progress and the implementation of these plans. I am pleased to see this proposal in the White Paper, where the Government proposes to give Estyn an enhanced role.
We also heard that the Welsh Government's power to intervene, where necessary, was also relatively limited. That's why we must ensure that legislation on Welsh-medium education includes measures that would allow the Welsh Government to monitor these plans' progress and intervene accordingly. The Government has accepted those recommendations.
A number of recommendations focus on the need to encourage and support a change of culture in local authorities regarding the benefits of developing Welsh language education, to strengthen partnerships in local authorities too, and there is a recommendation on the need to align the education sector's policies and capital with the strategic plans. Our concern there is ensuring that the amount of capital funding available for Welsh-medium education will not decline. That is not to say that that is what will happen, but we are of the view that this additional pot should be kept separate to avoid any doubt. The Government has accepted this in principle.
But perhaps the recommendations that have drawn the greatest attention, Dirprwy Lywydd, are those relating to the education workforce and the need to invest and to increase the numbers of staff receiving support through the sabbatical scheme. These were recommendations 13 to 18. Without a doubt, one of the main challenges for the Welsh Government in reaching the 2050 target is the adequate provision of a bilingual workforce. There are general challenges, of course, in recruiting teachers able to teach in both languages, but a lack of Welsh-medium teachers could undermine the target of 1 million Welsh speakers.
We also heard that the quality of data on the workforce's Welsh language skills was also inadequate. We want the Government to improve data-gathering processes, and the committee wanted to see the early years workforce being included as part of the annual school workforce census. The Minister has noted that this is not possible. Despite this, we are eager to see improved data on the workforce in this sector and Welsh language skills, as the sector is so vital in developing language skills from the cradle, when children are that young.
In addition to this, there is a need to transform how our workforce is upskilled and immersed in the Welsh language. This has to be a priority. The committee calls on the Government to invest further in immersion programmes for the education workforce, to enable skills to develop at pace. This includes support for early years staff and consideration given to the extension of opportunities via the sabbatical scheme, because, unfortunately, as laudable and vital the aim of attracting students back to Wales to undertake teacher training is, this alone won't be enough. Many of those working in the English-medium sector need more support to acquire and improve Welsh-language skills.
A couple of our recommendations were not accepted, and I'm sure that the Minister will be able to outline why in his response, but, on the whole, there is a great deal of agreement here, and that is important because Wales as a nation has now reached a crossroads. Now is the time to make changes. The decline in the number of Welsh speakers in the last census caused a great deal of concern, and that was clearly a focus of the inquiry. But as Raymond Williams said,

Delyth Jewell AC: 'To be truly radical is to make hope possible, rather than despair convincing.'

Delyth Jewell AC: Making hope possible—that is the challenge. Taking the steps to ensure that that hope is realistic, that it is a fair aspiration. The Welsh language is at the heart of our nation. It's a language that belongs to everyone, and it must belong to everyone. Our intention as a committee was to seek ways of ensuring that the aim of reaching 1 million Welsh speakers is more than a figure on a piece of paper, but that it is an aspiration with hope behind it. That hope is the master when time is its servant. But time is against us. With the year 2050 approaching, let us all pledge our hopes and our efforts towards ensuring that that target is achieved, and look forward to hearing others' contributions in this debate. Thank you.

Alun Davies AC: I enjoyed this inquiry, as it happens. Very often, committee work can be very difficult, and I hope the Minister will be pleased to hear that there was a great deal of agreement among our witnesses. Everyone, more or less, agreed that the WESPs had already succeeded in creating a framework and structure for the development of Welsh-medium education. And as the Minister is responding to today's debate, I have invited him to Tredegar, of course, to meet children who will start their education in the new Welsh school in Tredegar in September. And I take pride in the fact that children are receiving Welsh-medium education in Tredegar for the first time in over a century. And that is something that we should celebrate. It means that we are creating new Welsh speakers in Tredegar for the first time in our lifetimes, and that shows that we can alter our future and the future of Wales. Very rarely do we get the opportunity to do that. When I was considering this issue, as the Chair just said, the objective is clear, and there is agreement on that objective—creating 1 million Welsh speakers who can speak and enjoy using the Welsh language over the next years.
Now, for me, we need to do two things, and then a third thing after that. First, and I reflect the words of the Chair in saying this: the workforce. The greatest challenge for me is to ensure that we have a sufficient number of teachers and those able to teach through the medium of Welsh. I think there are enough parents who want their children to enjoy Welsh-medium education, but I'm not sure that we have a sufficient workforce to enable that to happen. So, we do need a workforce plan, and that needs to look at the long term. We have to look at the situation as it is today, and ensure that we have enough teachers for next year, the following year, and for the next five years. But we also have to think of the future too—the long-term future. And I'd like to hear from the Minister how he thinks legislation will help him achieve that, because I'm not sure that legislation is the best approach. But, we do have to have that workforce plan in place.
Secondly, we need a network of schools that will allow parents to make these choices.Now, I've changed my mind every time I've stood up to speak on many of these issues. I've looked at the school categorisation process, and I have to say that, when I look at all of the categories that we have, I don't see something that is clear and consistent. I think the Government's proposals will assist with that, but I'm not sure that we have agreement on that as of yet, and I would like us to have more discussion on that, because everyone wants the same thing: people want their children to speak Welsh. But how do we do that? Do we extend Welsh into bilingual schools, or do we perhaps narrow the focus by looking at schools that teach only through the medium of Welsh? I don't think that there's a one-size-fits-all solution. In Blaenau Gwent, I think schools using both languages might do more to promote the language than a monolingual Welsh school, but that is something that we can discuss and debate.
The third thing, and this is more difficult, is we've all heard anecdotes about the Welsh language being the language of the classroom but not the playground; it's certainly not the language for socialising in very many areas. When you learn Welsh, you learn the grammar, of course, in the classroom, but you don't learn how to communicate and to enjoy using the language in the classroom. You do that through your social life and by living your life through the medium of Welsh. Now, I appreciate and recognise the work of organisations such as the Urdd and the mentrau iaith in promoting Welsh culture and socialising through the medium of Welsh, but we must ensure that children do have a means of enjoying using the Welsh language within their communities.
The final point that I will make is this: there is agreement on all of this, I think; there was within the committee and there will be between the committee and the Government, and there is across the country, I believe, but, if this is to happen—and this is important for you, Minister—we must ensure that we have a transport policy that allows people to make the decisions that they want to make. All of us who are parents and who have looked at where schools are located and considered how we get our child to school in the morning, how they return home in the afternoon, I think that there are many parents who have just decided that, 'It's too difficult. It's just too difficult', and we all understand the pressures on budgets at the moment. So, transport has to be there as part of the plan, and it's just as important as the workforce plan.

Tom Giffard AS: Can I associate myself with the comments made by Delyth Jewell and Alun Davies about the enjoyment we had putting together this particular report? I think that enjoyment stemmed from something Alun said, which is that we all want the same thing, ultimately: we want to see more people enjoying and learning Welsh in their day-to-day lives, and that unity, I think, has brought us that report that we're debating today.
I think it identifies in particular—. I wanted to focus my remarks on the Welsh in education strategic plans, the WESPs. I think there was some support for them, but I think we also recognised that there were some flaws; I think the Minister himself recognised that there were some flaws in the way that they operated, which is something we'll come on to.
But, first of all, I wanted to start with the problems with our workforce. I'm pleased to say that, in Wales, I think we enjoy the benefits of a well-qualified, skilled, enthusiastic and able workforce, and that's really important in terms of the work that they do in delivering Welsh Government objectives on the ground, but I think the problem, as Alun identified, and Delyth, is that we don't have enough of them. Witnesses who presented to our committee were clear that Welsh-medium education is suffering because we lack sufficient numbers of teachers, teaching assistants, lecturers and so on, and, as Welsh Conservatives, my group wants to see improved teaching conditions, targeted support, and greater upskilling opportunities so that we have a workforce fit for the future, but also one that helps us reach that 'Cymraeg 2050' goal. But, without specific intervention in this area, I do worry that that goal will end in failure.
Combined with insufficient numbers in the workforce, our committee report highlighted further concerns over the 10-year cycle for reviewing and monitoring the development and progress of WESPs, and whilst we heard some really strong arguments in favour of ditching that three-year cycle, our report is quite clear in saying that 10 years, without regular review, is too long. So, it would be useful to hear from the Minister today, in response to the debate, how he intends to monitor those more intensively now, given that the time frame has lengthened.
On the issue of monitoring, the natural next question came to what powers the Minister currently has to intervene when an authority is failing to meet the targets set out for it in the WESP cycle. In our evidence session with the Minister, we heard a lot about the issue in terms of the way he uses soft power, if you like, for want of a better word, in relation to working with authorities to improve their situation, but I think the Minister himself noted that the power he had to take formal action was quite limited. So, I think it's important that the Welsh Government perhaps gives consideration to the implementation of measures to allow Ministers to intervene and take action in those areas and on issues in organisations that are struggling to tackle the root causes of the issues that they see. This is something recommended in the report, and in fact, it was included in the Children, Young People, and Education Committee report as far back as 2012.
Our report also noticed that a lot of WESP forums had a key role to play in the development of WESPs by local authorities and stakeholders, but exactly how they ran and operated varied hugely and was rightly identified as a concern. So, as a result, I think there's a role for Welsh Government in reviewing how these are constituted and strive to develop a baseline and standardise the basis of WESPs across Wales, because, in its current format, they're not always delivering the best outcomes in all circumstances.
And finally, the report raises concerns, concerns we've heard today in the debate, about the declining number of Welsh speakers in Wales, according to that last census—something we discussed in education questions earlier. The major points of concern that are relevant to this debate are those relating to younger people, and it's exactly those children and young people who are impacted by the WESPs. I know sometimes it can sound a little bit boring, a little bit technical, how we get this right, but the underlying numbers, going back to what I said at the beginning, striving to achieve what we want to see, are impacted by WESPs and the general policy that Welsh Government are trying to bring into play. So, a 6 per cent decrease in the proportion of children aged 5 to 15 being able to speak Welsh is a concern and questions the ability to reach that 'Cymraeg 2050' target. So, those WESPs need to be reactive, responsive, but also flexible enough to allow for change in the future, as and when required. So, we need a particular focus, I think, on those younger age groups I've just mentioned, because they were the ones who we saw a decline in in Welsh speaking numbers, which is perhaps most stark and most shocking to a lot of us. Because, ultimately, that's why we're having this debate and why we've produced this report, to ensure that WESPs are sufficiently effective to deliver the high-quality Welsh-medium education that people in Wales both want to see and deserve.

Heledd Fychan AS: I too would like to echo the thanks to everyone involved in this work, as a member of the committee at the time. It was a very important inquiry for us to undertake and very timely in terms of the work being done on the Welsh Language Education Bill. That work cut across our work, indeed, and it changed our thinking in terms of considering how we grow Welsh-medium education and covers the idea that is at the core of the Bill, this idea of the continuum, and that the vision is more ambitious in terms of ensuring that every child in Wales, regardless of where they live, regardless of which school they attend, will be exposed to the language—that's a very exciting ambition. But as we look at this, some of the practical issues that have already been mentioned—and I would echo those points without hopefully rehearsing them—there is clearly a postcode lottery at the moment in terms of the Welsh language. That is for some of the reasons that have already been noted, including transport. Is it a real choice if you can walk to three English-medium schools or you have to travel for miles to attend a Welsh-medium school? Well, no. Some choose to do that, but it's not an easy choice, and that's in places where public transport is available.
The Minister and I have had several conversations about a new school that will be built in Glyncoch, thanks to investment by the Welsh Government. Clearly, I welcome a new school being built for this area, but is an English-medium school, with a Welsh-medium school nearby closing. A number of parents are already choosing to take their children out of the Welsh-medium school that's about to close, so that they can attend the new English-medium school nearby, and that does raise genuine concerns.
We've also heard evidence about the variants in WESPs across local authorities, some collaborating very closely,others expecting partners to work miracles without providing resources. Alun Davies emphasised the importance of the Urdd. In some local authorities, the Urdd can use locations free of charge, such as leisure centres; some local authorities charge the Urdd to do that. There is inconsistency in terms of these WESPs, because, if we want them to succeed, then asking partners to be paying to support this work doesn't help either. We have to look at this in a holistic manner, because it is important, experiences in terms of sports through the Urdd and so on are so important—to be able to play football, netball, whatever it may be, through the medium of Welsh, not just being in the classroom, is vitally important, and that consistency is important too.
A number of people have campaigned for Welsh-medium education in the past. One of those is a man called Phil Bevan, who was a councillor in Caerphilly, who doesn't speak Welsh and always says Welsh is in his heart but not in his head. He is very concerned at the moment about the workforce. He wants to know what we're going to do to ensure that we tackle this issue. He was one of those people who used to sleep overnight in a school to campaign for Welsh-medium education, and he is very disappointed to see a decline in some instances in access to the language.
So, it's a situation where there are things to be positive about, but there are barriers and frustrations at the moment. I'm pleased to see the recommendations being noted, but I would ask, Minister—. You have said in responding to a number of the recommendations that you will reflect on this as you develop the Welsh Language Education Bill, and ensure that that language continuum is provided. It is vitally important that we take the opportunity provided by this Bill to enable the vision that we all have to be achieved. Too often, local authorities have said that they'll meet demand rather than supporting and growing the demand. This is also the case with regard to additional learning needs, where that currently doesn't happen. 
I've spoken numerous times, just in the region that I represent, about the variation in terms of immersion in the language—there are excellent examples in the Vale of Glamorgan, where people can have 12 weeks from Monday to Thursday of genuine immersion; in Rhondda Cynon Taf, it's just an hour a day with someone going from school to school. That isn't immersion. We have to have consistency of provision, and what I would hope is that we can continue to work as a culture committee and as a Children, Young People, and Education Committee to ensure that we work with you to achieve a Bill that genuinely achieves everything that we need it to achieve, not just what we are calling for it to achieve.

I call on the Minister for Education and Welsh Language, Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'm extremely grateful to the committee for the report following their inquiry. It's a creative and constructive report, so thank you very much for your work.
A lot has happened since you commenced the inquiry. The WESPs of all local authorities are now operational, and we are consulting, or rather have now consulted, on a White Paper that included proposals for a Welsh Language Education Bill, as we've already mentioned this afternoon. The consultation, as some have already recognised, is a significant step forward, I think, towards delivering the commitment in the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru. The consultation is now closed, and there is important work happening now in analysing the responses as we continue to develop and refine the proposals in the White Paper. And therefore, the recommendations in this report make an important contribution to that debate, and are very timely indeed.
To reflect on the point that Alun Davies made, I have said previously that legislation is one part of the bigger picture, and what we deliver through policy interventions, financial contributions, the way in which we collaborate and communicate and so on, is very often as important as legislation. I'm also pleased that the report and the debate that we've had today do recognise, quite rightly, where there have been improvements to the WESPs, and that that has led to plans that I think most people would accept are far more robust. It's important that we maintain the momentum of the current WESPs, whilst also planning to strengthen the system, which is what we want to achieve.
I hope the committeewill see that our proposals in the White Paper have tackled a number of the report’s recommendations. That’s why I have accepted either in full, or partly, or in principle, the vast majority of the recommendations contained within the report, and have tried to explain openly the reasons when we haven’t been able to fully accept recommendations. Of the recommendations I’ve rejected, I do that simply because I am confident that those recommendations are currently being appropriately addressed in other ways—for example, through the Bill or other regulations. So, recommendations 5 and 14 fall into that category.

Jeremy Miles AC: There are a number of recommendations to strengthen the planning arrangements, as we’ve discussed today, and I certainly agree with that emphasis—that, at the end of the day, will drive action on the ground, the ability to do that, and that, essentially, is the focus of the White Paper.
We’ve talked about local education fora, and I certainly acknowledge that they play an important role in driving the agenda forward and nurturing strong local relationships, and, to be fair, have been an important part of the progress that we have been able to make in the most recent WESPs.
There is, I think, room to support better planning, so I do agree with the recommendations in the report to review those structures. It’s important to strike the right balance between robust monitoring and support, and I think that the proposals in the White Paper in relation to the national plan on one hand and the local action plans do go a long way down the road to achieving that, and indeed the ability for us to operate as a Government.
Again, a point that Alun, and others, made—this, of course, isn’t possible unless we ensure that we have an adequate and appropriate workforce. It’s a year since I announced the workforce plan—the specific intervention that I think Tom Giffard called for. It is, of course, a challenge to attract the education workforce of the future in any language, but, although there are challenges, we do have a responsibility—there's a responsibility on all of us—to continue to co-operate so that schools can inspire young people to go into the profession. I think we often think about recruitment challenges in the Welsh-medium sector as some sort of subset of the challenge facing the profession more broadly, but perhaps the more creative way of thinking about it is that that undervalues the idea of the inspiration and motivation that we can have in the opportunity to share the language with the next generation. So, perhaps we need to look at it in a slightly more creative way from time to time.
The proposals in the White Paper to set targets for local authorities for workforce planning and to increase the numbers that have Welsh-medium skills are based on the relevant data analysis from the annual workforce census. The aim here is to develop a better understanding of the needs of practitioners locally in order to strengthen national planning in this area. That includes firing funding to the right places, as we outline in our response to recommendation 17. There’s always more to do, but we do have to continue to innovate and to attract as many young people as we can to become teachers, or teaching assistants, of course.
The proposals in the White Paper set firm foundations to support learners to make ongoing progress in the Welsh language and to have an opportunity to become independent speakers, whatever the school’s category. That is important, and there has been widespread engagement during the consultation on the White Paper. There has been huge interest in the concept of creating a Welsh language skills continuum to describe levels of Welsh language skills, so that teachers, parents and employers come to understand and have a shared understanding of the journey towards acquiring the Welsh language. I think that will take time to establish, but that is certainly the right concept, I think.
Early contact with the Welsh language in the preschool sector is crucially important, and we see Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin as a key partner. I am eager and open to thinking, as with teachers, about innovative ways of attracting a childcare workforce and early years workforce to the profession. There are examples of that to be seen already, and we will continue to collaborate with Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin and others in that context.Likewise, we need to support continuity in all the phases of education, including among older learners to allow them to continue with their learning through the medium of Welsh once they've left school.
And it's also important to have a strong narrative to support the changes in the White Paper in orderto ensure that the public discourse supportsthe culture shift, as Alun mentioned was happening in Tredegar, and creates a positive attitude towards that change.
So, in closing, Dirprwy Lywydd, I would like to thank the committee once again for this report, and I'm pleased to be able to support, or support in part or in principle, most of the recommendations, and thank you to everyone who has worked with you. I look forward myself to continuing to work with you in the way that we've already mentioned this afternoon as we take forward the Welsh language's journey together.

And I call on Delyth Jewell to reply to the debate.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to everyone who has contributed to the debate. I'll go through some of the points that people made. Thank you to Alun for talking about Tredegar and creating new Welsh speakers, which is certainly something to be welcomed. I recently visited cylch meithrin the Gurnos in Merthyr, and again, akin to what is happening in Tredegar, what is happening in Merthyr too, in some of these places where there is so much potential for growth and progress, it does lift one's spirits, doesn't it? So, I agree with what you said, and also on the importance of socialising in the medium of Welsh and enjoying the language. We talk about frameworks, but that's something that is so, so important, so thank you for talking about that.

Delyth Jewell AC: Tom was talking about our unity of vision in where we want to get to, and, of course, setting out some of the challenges, but that is so important, because I think that that was something that really came through throughout this inquiry, that we all do share this sense of where we want our future as a nation with this in mind to get to.
You talked about the census figures, Tom, and I know that we all as a committee were looking forward to seeing what the ONS come out with in terms of the work that's being done there, and we're going to continue monitoring that. But, of course, that is something that is very much framing how we will all be seeing this, of course.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Heledd, for your comments. We'll miss you a great deal in the committee. I think all our work has been enriched by your perspective on the committee. So, thank you very much, and not just for what you've said today, but for everything that you've contributed to the committee's work.
You spoke about transport and making the right choice, or making it easy for someone to choose to send their child to a Welsh-medium school and ensuring that those barriers are overcome and eradicated— that's really important—and the importance also of providing support for the Welsh language outside the classroom, as Alun spoke about socialising through the medium of Welsh. Thank you for mentioning Phil Bevan; we all owe him a great debt of gratitude, so thank you very much for mentioning him.
Thank you to the Minister for your comments, and I am very pleased that we've been able to have an input in terms of what's happening with regard to legislation. It's very encouraging that the Government have accepted the majority of our recommendations. I think that speaks to the fact that there are so many things that we agree on in terms of what needs to happen. I also welcome that willingness to have further discussions, and I really mean that. That's something I am very grateful for.
In terms of rejecting recommendations 5 and 14, I understand the rationale. On recommendation 14, I'd reiterate the importance of data on skills, but I think again that there is agreement on the importance of that. It's about how we get to that point, but I do understand what you said about that.
But what came through clearly, I think, in what everyone has said, the Minister and everyone in our debate, is that acting on the ground is what's important. We've spoken about frameworks and facts, but there is something alive here. We're not just talking about the proverbial vineyard that was given to us, or sentences on paper; the Welsh language is a living language. It's important to our history, but also important to our future. The eyes of the future generations are on us in these discussions. We must get these things right to ensure that the Welsh language continues, continues to flourish and prosper, to be a living language for everyone in our small, proud nation, which has the language at its heart. So, in that spirit, thank you very much to everyone who's contributed to the debate this afternoon, and I look forward—all of us as a committee look forward—to continuing to scrutinise this very important work. Thank you.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. Welsh Conservatives Debate: National Health Service

The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Item 8 this afternoon is the Welsh Conservatives debate on the national health service, and I call on Russell George to move the motion.

Motion NDM8315 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Celebrates the 75th anniversary of the creation of the National Health Service.
2. Notes the British Medical Association’s warning that GP services and the Welsh National Health Service is in crisis and at risk of collapse.
3. Calls on the Welsh Government to secure the next 75 years of the National Health Service by meeting the needs of patients and staff and maintaining the core principle of being free at the point of need.

Motion moved.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Llywydd. It's a pleasure to have the opportunity to open this debate today and to celebrate 75 years of our NHS. I move the motion in the name of my colleague Darren Millar. This Welsh Conservatives debate today is about two things, in my mind: it is about celebrating our NHS, and it's also about exploring the challenges that we need to address to secure a prosperous future for our NHS here in Wales.
Today I was pleased to speak at the event here in the Senedd that was organised by the Welsh NHS Confederation, which showcased a 'future of healthcare' gallery. Also, there were numerous stands and exhibits in the event this afternoon in the Senedd exploring and showing innovation within our NHS, and NHS partners as well. I spoke in that event today about how, throughout our lives, we rely on our NHS, not only to support us when we are physically or mentally unwell, but also to help us stay well and live healthier lives.
I know all of us here today will have our own personal reasons for being grateful to the NHS as we mark this important milestone. I went on to say at this event today that today's NHS is a very different institution from the one that was established in 1948. Change is constant in our NHS. Advances in research and medical science have led to innovations in prevention, to new treatments, new ways of working, new professions. There are professions in the NHS today that just 20 years ago didn't exist. There are new models of care that would have been unimaginable when the NHS first began.
But as change is constant, there is, of course, more to do to meet the evolving needs. As a Welsh Conservative, I think I speak for all in this Chamber today: we want to see the NHS continue for another 75 years, continuing to be free at the point of need. As we rightly celebrate advancement in treatments and technologies in healthcare, I think it's also right that we use this milestone to give an opportunity to talk about the challenges that exist in our NHS and how to respond to those challenges.
We have heard in recent days and weeks that the BMA have said that GP services will collapse in Wales, and the NHS will follow soon after, unless urgent support is provided. As patient levels rise, numbers of GP surgeries and doctors are falling amid inadequate resources and unstable workloads. I think it's important for us as politicians, as the Government, that when health professionals speak, we should listen. To think that a health body in Wales has said that GP services will collapse in Wales and the NHS will follow, I think, is a stark warning to us. We've got to understand the reasons behind what is said to us when health professionals use words such as that. The fact is I know that the body have written to the Welsh Government urging for more funding and staff help as well, and so I hope the Welsh Government will respond appropriately to the profession.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Would you give way?

Russell George AC: Absolutely, yes.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I think I'm going to agree with many points in the contribution you're making today. But I just want to flag up as well that today there's been an interesting letter that's been sent to the leaders of the political parties in the UK, and to Rishi Sunak as well, pointing out the challenges—[Interruption.] Exactly. But they do note in that letter that the NHS has endured a decade of underinvestment compared to the historic average, and capital spending has been well below average, below comparable countries—and they go on. The point I'm making is if we are all agreed that this has to be free at the point of need for the next 75 years, we have to will the means as well. All of those health organisations also say we need the long-overdue reform of adult social care as well. Does he agree with those points that are made? We're suffering from chronic underinvestment.

Russell George AC: I do actually agree, Huw. We are suffering from underinvestment.I could go on to make some party political points, but I'm going to avoid doing that, because I want to try and—. You said you agree with most of what has been said, but I hope that by the end of this contribution you will remain in that position, agreeing with most of what I'm going to say in my contribution today. But I agree with the general points you make.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: On the decade of underinvestment?

Russell George AC: We have had underinvestment. We have in Wales. We have seen that unfortunately—[Interruption.] Well, I'm going to avoid being drawn into some further political—. I'd be very happy to, but I want to try and bring some consensus this afternoon to this debate.

Darren Millar AC: Would you take an intervention?

Russell George AC: Yes, of course.

Darren Millar AC: It's on the matter of NHS budgets. I, for one, want to applaud the UK Government, because unlike the Labour Government it has never cut an NHS budget. In addition to that, the NHS budget since 2010, under the Conservatives, has increased by 50 per cent. Would you welcome that fact?

Russell George AC: The points that Darren Millar made were points that I was going to make myself in terms of responding to your intervention, Huw, but I was reluctant to do so, because I want there to be some consensus this afternoon. But I also agree with the points Darren Millar makes.
What I will say is that we're also talking about—. I've talked about the British Medical Association. We know as well that the British Dental Association has found that 93 per cent of dental practices in Wales were no longer taking on new NHS adult patients, and that was the worst rate in the UK. There are many more health bodies that I could refer to that have raised concerns over the past 12 months, and particularly in the last week as well, and I think it's important that we as politicians listen to those calls. I co-sponsored an event yesterday here in the Senedd—I seem to be co-sponsoring or sponsoring lots of events at the moment—where the Welsh royal colleges and professional bodies advisory group launched a joint paper endorsed by 28 national organisations, calling for action to increase staffing numbers and improve workforce well-being. The Minister, yesterday, said that without a workforce there is no NHS, and I completely agree with the Minister in that regard. We can talk about buildings and equipment, but actually the NHS is the workforce, and the workforce is the backbone. Without the workforce, we'd have no NHS at all.
I also agree with the nearly 30 organisations that have joined together with a single voice to call on the Government to invest in our staff. And it was interesting; Judith Paget today has acknowledged the need for a rapid increase in the numbers of staff. Patients need to have full confidence that they will receive first-class treatment and care for the long term. This is where I think—and perhaps I'm responding to some of the issues that Huw Irranca-Davies raised—the long-term issues need to be resolved in Wales. It's in regard to workforce. This is an issue that this Labour Government have to tackle, but it's also an issue that future Governments in Wales have to tackle as well, and that's why I think there's room for consensus across all parties, because if we're going to tackle some of the long-term workforce issues here in Wales, I think there needs to be a proper debate and some consensus amongst political parties. We know that the staffing levels in the NHS are going to have to increase in the years ahead, but we also know we've got those stark warnings from the Royal College of Nursing that we've got those 3,000 nurse vacancies that need to be filled. So, I think the long-term priority has to be, for this Government and future Governments, a workforce plan.
What I will say as well is that we celebrated the 75 years of the NHS today, and I think we've got to recognise all those that receive that great treatment within the NHS. Many people will contact me about how they've had fantastic treatment, they've appreciated the health professionals that have supported them, and they greatly appreciate the service that they've received. I think the big issue, of course, is not those who are receiving treatment—it's those who are not receiving treatment, and this is where we've got a particular challenge, we know, in Wales. We know we've got 30,000 people waiting two years. We know that those waits have been eliminated elsewhere. So, I think the short-term issue for the Government is in terms of addressing those two-year waits, because unless we can do that, we're going to be stuck in this spiral and unable to address some of the other issues within our Welsh NHS.
We know that there are many people on that waiting list who are in pain and discomfort, and for many people, the only choice is to go private. It used to be that, if you go private, it's because you can afford to do so. Well, that's no longer the case. People are making those lifestyle choices. If they're in their 70s, they don't want to lose two years of their retirement. If they're younger, they don't want to take two years out of their career. So, they're making those lifestyle choices to go private. This is not the NHS, I don't think, that Aneurin Bevan envisaged, because the NHS should be free at the point of need.
These are some of the issues that need to be addressed. The workforce issues are the big one—retention, morale—and having that important workforce planning, I think, is crucial. And I have particular concern about the social care workforce, because the need, I think, to improve pay, terms and conditions is a matter of urgency in this particular area, because unless this is done, we're still going to have those issues of hospital discharge. We need to improve the pay and conditions of the social care workforce if we're really going to make progress in this regard.
I do look forward to contributions in the Chamber this afternoon, and I hope the tone of this debate is right. But, above all, I wish the NHS a happy birthday.Pen-blwydd hapus,NHS.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to move amendment 1.

Amendment 1—Heledd Fychan
Add new point at the end of motion:
Believes that National Health Service privatisation is a fundamental threat to our health service and that providing healthcare free at the point of need should remain the principle at the heart of health care provision in Wales.

Amendment 1moved.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you very much, Llywydd. I formally move amendment 1, and I thank the Conservatives for bringing this debate forward today. As I mentioned yesterday, it's important that we remember why the NHS was established initially and celebrate its existence and everything that it has achieved over 75 years. I am certain that I wouldn't be standing here before you today if it wasn't for the excellent work of the NHS. As someone who comes from a relatively poor household, my parents couldn't have afforded the different medicines that I needed at different times as a younger person, from my premature birth to the antibiotics I needed over the years, and so on and so forth. Each and every one of us has similar stories to share, of course, so I look forward to seeing our Senedd recognising the excellent work doneby giving thanks for the NHS and thanks to the NHS.
But as we celebrate one of the creations of Aneurin Bevan, it's very easy to forget that the creation of the NHS was one half of the coin. The other was his huge programme of house building in public ownership, which was available across the board. We have forgotten or ignored the link between health and housing, but the state of our health is often tied to our housing. Of course, the Conservatives ignore this in talking about celebrating the creation of the NHS, whilst justifying Thatcher's cruel policy of selling off public housing. Both things are entwined, and let's not forget one at the expense of the other.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: But while we rightly celebrate 75 years of the NHS, we mustn't forget what the NHS is. The NHS is nothing without the committed workforce. It's those skilled and dedicated individuals, from the consultants through to the porters, that make the NHS what it is. While we value and rightly sing the praises of the NHS and its fantastic achievements, we mustn't gloss over the problems that face us here in Wales today. It's possible that the biggest challenge that the NHS has ever had to face was the COVID pandemic, which we are still living through. It's interesting that consultants and clinicians have told me that, on the one hand, they managed better during the pandemic because they only had to concentrate on the one issue, because the thousands of other issues were temporarily put aside.
All of that is now catching up with the system, and those invaluable people who make up the NHS that we are celebrating today are tired. While we champion them with verbal praises here, the truth is that they don't feel valued. They don't feel appreciated. They don't feel respected. Many within the workforce have had to fight to get the recognition that they so deserve, and continue to fight for improved working conditions so that they can provide the best healthcare that they can. They shouldn't have to fight the Government. It's surely hypocritical for anybody to stand up here today and sing the praises of the NHS on the one hand while also fighting them every step of the way to deny them what they should rightly get in pay and working conditions. The Conservatives can't point the finger at the Labour Government here alone; the Government now, in the UK, are now proposing to ignore the recommendations of the independent pay review bodies. The strikes taking place in England will have a direct impact on patients here in Wales, with elective surgery on Welsh patients being carried out at Broadgreen, Arrowe Park, Clatterbridge, Gobowen and other hospitals in England. So, if the Conservatives are serious about meeting the needs of patients and staff, I suggest that they have a word with Sunak and Hunt at Downing Street.
Privatisation is a real threat to our NHS. Take the crisis facing dentistry. The lack of dentists and inability to access dentists is leading to people seeking private care. The same applies to those on long waiting times for treatment. I've received many letters from electors who have gone private for hip and knee surgery because they simply can't wait two years or more.

Russell George AC: Will you take an intervention, Mabon?

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Yes. Go for it, Russ.

Russell George AC: I do think you're right that many are seeking private treatment, as I pointed out, but I think there's an important point here in that the private sector and private companies do have a role to play in helping to get the NHS waiting lists down, because that's exactly what the Welsh NHS and health boards should be doing—they are, to a point; they should do it more. They should be commissioning those services to private healthcare bodies in order to drive the waiting times down.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Temporarily, but nobody should be profiting from the ill health of others, and that's the whole point of the NHS, and that's why the NHS was set up, and that's why we have to defend it and make sure that the services are there, so that people don't turn to the private sector.
We're now seeing private GP practices opening in communities right across Wales. They are seeing an opportunity because of a lack of GP cover. It's a slow yet steady increase in private healthcare provision here in Wales, and unless we see that investment required to retain our brilliant staff and ensure that they have the work-life balance required in the twenty-first century, then we'll see this creeping privatisation taking over more and more of our health provision.
So, to finish, in Plaid Cymruwe express our deepest gratitude to all those working in the NHS who have committed to helping others. Thank you for all that you have done and are doing. But, if this motion is to mean anything, let's make sure that the workforce within the NHS receive the terms and conditions that they need to fulfil their duties and ensure that we have an NHS that is fighting fit and prepared for the next 75 years.

Sam Rowlands MS: Of course, 75 years is a significant milestone for the national health service, and in that period, I'm sure that every one of us will have had a reason to be grateful for the NHS, and certainly to those working in the health service in particular.
I've shared a number of times in this Chamber that I'm proud that my brother and sister are both nurses in the NHS, and like many others have played their part in helping people in our communities when they're most in need. Our staff in the NHS are those who do their best to serve patients, to support them and help them in their hour of need, despite, at times, in very challenging working conditions and also, at times, working in health boards such as Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, which could be described as being dysfunctional.
But, at this point, I'd like to put on record my personal thanks also to the NHS, who have been there for me and for my family over the years. I think of the births of my three children, right through to my brother-in-law in intensive care during and with COVID, right through to those providing the care for my grandparents in their final days. The vast range of challenges faced and support given by the NHS in Wales on any given day is mind-boggling and worthy of being celebrated here today for its 75 years.
It's clear that the dedication of the staff is not in question when it comes to the NHS to have today sustained the health service over these 75 years. But, as Russell George opened up, and as we mark this milestone, my concern is what the health service will look like for the next 75 years, and how well set up the NHS is in Wales to be able to maintain its core principle of being free at the point of need when my children and grandchildren will be seeking the help and support that they will need in thefuture as well.
We know, of course, that in one way or another, the NHS in Wales has been run by a Labour Government for more than 25 years, and whilst the responsibility for the delivery of these services could sit with health boards or with delivery bodies, the accountability sits clearly with the Welsh Government. And, in light of this, and at this milestone, one of the most important areas of focus for the Welsh Government should be in relation to point 2 of our motion today, which, and I'll quote,
'Notes the British Medical Association's warning that GP services and the Welsh National Health Service is in crisis and at risk of collapse'.
This is a sobering warning, which Members in this Chamber have already raised, and it shows the importance of getting it right, and particularly at a primary care level. Because, for so many in the past 75 years, it's at the primary care level that there is the day-to-day reassurance and support for access to an NHS being free at the point of need, and if it can't be effectively done at this level, the knock-on effect can be devastating. And let's not forget the 'risk of collapse', as described by the BMA, has been overseen by a Labour Government here in Wales, and I do wonder what Aneurin Bevan would make of the way this Welsh Labour Party is running the national health service. It's the same Labour Party, which is the only Government in Britain, as Darren Millar pointed out, to cut NHS spending in modern times. And it's this Labour Party that presides over two-year waiting lists of over 30,000, when the number is virtually zero in England—

Carolyn Thomas AS: Would you take an intervention?

Sam Rowlands MS: I certainly will, Carolyn.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you. You talk about when NHS spending was cut, but I do recall—I think going back to 2014—it was one year when I was a councillor, and we'd had year upon year of cuts in social healthcare funding: 30 per cent cuts to social healthcare; 30 per cent cuts to education; and 30 per cent cuts to other services because of austerity. And I remember that, through the Welsh Local Government Association, the leaders made representations to Welsh Government that, that year, instead of giving all the money to the NHS, which could set a deficit budget, they would put that funding instead into social healthcare, which they did that one year, and I remember ever since that the Conservatives have criticised them for it. So, I'm just clarifying: is that what this is about? Because, again, the NHS is social healthcare as well as NHS; you can't just have the health service on its own.

Sam Rowlands MS: Well, I think Carolyn Thomas pointed to a number of areas there where Welsh Government have chosen, again, to cut public services that are really important to people, that absolutely affect our health services as well.
As I said, it's the Labour Party that presides over the two-year waiting lists of over 30,000, when the number is zero in England. Let's look at this: from founding the national health service to running it into the ground, that is the current legacy of the Labour Party here in Wales. The evidence to me is clear. We all know what the first step to a Welsh NHS revival is, and that's the removal of Labour from office. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Rhianon Passmore AC: On behalf of the communities of Islwyn, I do want to say 'thank you' to the national service that celebrates its seventy-fifth anniversary today.
The vision of Labour's Aneurin Bevan and the post-war Labour Government of Clement Atlee created one of the United Kingdom's greatest ever achievements: universal healthcare free at the point of care. Our beloved national health service is perfection in its concept and in its simplicity, and it also needs the UK capital infrastructureinvestment that it deserves. Indeed, not so long ago, my own grandmother died in childbirth, being denied any medical aid by the works board, as my grandfather begged for her life, from a board of men in order for her to see a doctor that he could not afford. That is my own family history, and it's one travesty of living memory, and we must never take that for granted. That is the warning also on the front page of the Western Mail today from Aneira Thomas, the very first baby born on the NHS, and a very different story to my own grandmother's, and she stated:
'The NHS touches all our lives and we're all guilty of taking it for granted'.
So, whatever criticisms we may have, we know that there are those on the political right, however, that would love to end our NHS and open healthcare to the complete lottery of the free market. And I would ask you to look at Jeremy Hunt's pamphlet, which Michael Gove also contributed to.
In Murdoch's The Times this week, Sajid Javid was quoted as saying that the
'ailing NHS has made us sicker'.
I don't know if you'd disagree with that. And Murdoch's The Sun newspaper screamed today,
'Happy 75th birthday, NHS – but you'll need intensive care to see another one'—
45—
'Years of political failure is killing you'.
So, these two papers, from an extreme right-wing billionaire, who is only allowed in the UK for a set number of days a year, constantly decry our NHS and the free universal healthcare that it provides. And for these right-wing zealots, who live not in the UK, but who actually rule our press, it is these unelected—[Interruption.]; no—media moguls who demand, who demand that ordinary working people, 'Vote Tory at the next general election', often donors to the Conservative Party. And so, the NHS is just another institution that they wish to asset strip—[Interruption.]; don't believe me, read what Jeremy Hunt wrote—to asset strip, profit from, and expose poor and ill people to market forces, the most vulnerable in our society. But we here, in this Chamber, on this side, believe in society.
So yes, the challenges remain, but I stand committed, along with my fellow Welsh Labour colleagues and progressives across the Senedd, to the greatest socialist ideal ever enacted in this country—our NHS. It is the love shown to our people from an elected Government, following that sacrifice in world war two, that secured freedom in this country—the protection of its people in its purest policy. So finally, I want to thank, not just with words, all those who have and continue to serve the NHS, and in particular, those who serve in the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board, and in social care. We are forever grateful for your dedicated services and the acts of compassion and care that you display every single day of your lives. Today, wherever you are, please just take a moment to pause and reflect on what the NHS means to you and your families, and also what it would mean, like my grandmother, to be without it. So, thank you.

Natasha Asghar AS: I'd like to begin by thanking my colleague Darren Millar for tabling this important debate, in what is a huge milestone for the NHS. I want to take this opportunity to thank every single member of staff who has worked in the NHS throughout its 75-year history, and for all the dedication that they've shown, as well as their hard work. Our NHS would be nothing without the fantastic staff working tirelessly, day in and day out. I could stand here and list 100 different ways this Labour Government is failing our NHS and the people of Wales, but today I want to focus on celebrating the NHS, and also the health service.
Each and every single one of us here in this Chamber has stories about a time when the NHS was there for us, and today is a day to share those tales. The NHS has been there for me and my family through some of our most difficult times. I want to say an enormous thank you to all of the doctors, nurses, speech therapists, cardiac rehab members, who helped my mother after her stroke, and all the paramedics who tried to save my father following his heart attack in 2020. It's no secret that 16 June, the day my father died, is the most hated day of the year, but there is one thing that gave me solace, and that's the fact that I know six medical professionals did their very best for over an hour to resuscitate my dad. I wasn't there to say thank you to them, but now is my chance to say, from the bottom of my heart, 'Thank you so much for coming to my dad's aid.'
There will be families right across Wales who have similar stories to mine, and equally hold the amazing staff in such high regard. Our health service is always a hot topic of conversation, and something that gets everyone very heated and very emotional. But that's because we all care and we want to see the NHS continue to be free at the point of need, and for many more years to come, and provide our constituents, from whatever corner of Wales, with the best possible care. However, at the moment, it's clear that our constituents aren't always receiving the best of care, and not a day goes by that there isn't a damning story in the press about it, and it has been aired by many Members, from across this Chamber, today.
That is not in any way a reflection of the staff; it's a reflection of this Government. We cannot continue to just sit by and watch things deteriorate any further. We do need better tech, we do need better mental health support for the NHS workers, and we need to provide them with more facilities and benefits that make the job more lucrative for them to want to actually stay in. We really, as Members here in this Welsh Parliament, need to listen to each and every single NHS worker and find out from them the best ways to move forward and to reduce the pressures on the NHS. Consequently, we do need to see more robust action from the Welsh Government if we're going to see and secure the next 75 years of a free health service here in Wales.
Presiding Officer, I know that the Minister has a mammoth task on her hands, but I do hope that this debate will give the Minister for health plenty of food for thought, because things really do need to change, and they need to change sooner rather than later, because we all want to see the NHS thrive and we want to see it survive. So, as we mark a major milestone, on behalf of all the constituents that I represent in south-east Wales, I would like to wish the NHS a very happy seventy-fifth birthday.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Clement Attlee's Government borrowed, invested and nationalised in order to lay down the foundations of the welfare stateand the NHS, expanding public housing—over 1 million houses were built in five years—and revitalising core industries, which delivered a rapid increase in living standards, decreased inequality and grew prosperity. Aneurin Bevan believed in universality, ensuring that nobody is left behind, no matter what their background.
The NHS is a precious resource and a great achievement of the reforming 1945 Labour Government, yet the assumption on its foundation in 1948 was based on life expectancy for men of 65 and women of 70. The NHS cannot survive if social care funding and public services funding are decreased now—times have changed—and that's happened under the last 13 years of a UK Tory Government. With people living longer, the proper funding of all public services, including housing, transport, public protection is essential for a thriving NHS, as the Attlee Government and Aneurin Bevan knew—it's about welfare.
Going back over the last 20 years, from 2000 to 2010, resources increased in real terms by 50 per cent, in line with need, but from 2010, when the Tories took over, austerity and decline really started—year after year of cuts, weakening and stretching public services, including social care, housing and preventative services, such as leisure services. And that is why I said earlier, about when the Conservatives said that funding had been cut one year to the NHS—. It's because pressure was put on to put that funding back into social services, which had been cut year after year, because one can't go without the other.
As discussed last week, we need investment in capital expenditure to deal with an ageing NHS estate—[Interruption.]—to invest in new step-down facilities—

The Member is not taking an intervention. Please carry on, Carolyn.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you.
It has been reduced to the Welsh Government, and the amount Welsh Government can borrow has been restricted by the UK Government. There is much to celebrate, and we need to celebrate what is great about our health service. Many people receive excellent treatment under the care of dedicated health professionals. They are our NHS. They are our health service. And it should be noted that spending per person in Wales on health and social services combined is 14 per cent higher in Wales than in England, because they go hand in hand.
A resident recently told me—in fact, just last week—about a positive NHS experience of a hip operation in the newly-refurbished ward at Wrexham Maelor Hospital that opened last week. Another had major heart surgery and his reablement was in the community—in a community centre in Connah's Quay, and a specialist nurse was phoning him up at home to make sure he was okay. It's also important to acknowledge the challenges we face. In Wales, NHS spending now accounts for over 50 per cent of the Welsh Government's budget, compared to 39.1 per cent in 2009-10.
But we cannot leave social care behind, as this is what causes the lack of beds in hospitals and issues at accident and emergency, with ambulances piling up, as I did experience—well, a resident experienced and let me know last week. Hospitals are full of people needing social care, which is why that needs addressing, and the number of 85-year-olds will double over the next 25 years, and those over 65 will rise to one in four of the population before 2050, as the health Minister has said. This is at the heart of the challenge we face to secure the next 75 years of the NHS.
I spoke with a north Wales doctor recently at the British Medical Association event here in the Senedd, and he was saying that we need more general practitioners coming forward, because many are directed towards specialist services. But he did agree that the new medical centre being built in Bangor will help, and I believe in September 2024 Bangor University will be launching its first medicine programme where students will be able to complete their full medical degree in north Wales, which will be a huge boost. And nursing and allied health professional training, including nursing, paramedics, ambulance training, is now available at Wrexham Glyndŵr University, as well as Bangor. And I know someone who's had a recent career change and is studying to become a mental health nurse. She's enjoying it so much; she said it's given her a meaningful career, which is great.
As I say, the NHS is its people, is its staff. We need to stop talking negatively about it. We need to boost morale amongst the staff. I was talking to an emergency doctor at Cardiff and Vale, and she was saying that they don't have problems recruiting, and that's why they're actually dealing really well with A&E and they’re going straight into the wards. So, we need to really stop talking negatively. It’s a huge privilege to live in a country with a national health system. I’m so proud of that. Access to health should be based on clinical need, not whether or not you can afford it. Thank you.

Altaf Hussain AS: I would like to thank Darren Millar for bringing forward this debate today, and to place on record my thanks to the many tens of thousands of people who work in the NHS. Without their hard work and dedication, our health service would not be one of the best in the world. Happy seventy-fifth birthday, NHS.
Now, our NHS is far from perfect, but it is miles better than many of the alternatives, and I was proud to spend decades working on its front line. It is a pride shared by everyone working in our health services. But, whilst every single person working in a clinical role will tell you how much they value our NHS, they will also tell you our health and care system are not healthy. Our NHS is sick and, unless we get a grip, it may not be in around another 75 years. I won't be around then, but my children and my children's children will be, and we owe it to them to secure our NHS's future.
Three quarters of a century ago, Nye Bevan established a national health service that ensured the people of Wales received healthcare that is free at the point of clinical need, irrespective of the patient's ability to pay. Everyone here wants those founding principles to continue, and for the NHS to go from strength to strength. But there's a deep-seated problem affecting our NHS: Governments of all colours have long ignored the warnings about staffing and implementing short-term fixes, sticking plasters over the cracks, but those sticking plasters are starting to fall off.
Nowhere do we see this more starkly than in the growth of waiting lists. When I retired as an orthopaedic consultant, I did not have a waiting list. In fact, I demanded that the management allowed me to see elderly patients privately free of charge to ensure that they were not forced to suffer in pain. Today, patients are waiting years—so long—for routine treatment.
Good health is the cornerstone of our society. At present, a patient's human rights and ethical considerations are being overlooked as our NHS becomes overburdened. The declaration of Tokyo states:
'A doctor must have complete clinical independence in deciding upon the care of a person for whom he or she is medically responsible. The doctor's fundamental role is to alleviate the distress of fellow humans, and no motive whether personal, collective or political shall prevail against this higher purpose.'
We're not abiding by these principles. Patients are, at present, in pain, distress and with loss of function, which means they have had their human rights compromised. Unless we get to grips with waiting lists, the burden placed on patients and clinicians will be overwhelming. Staff have held the NHS together despite cuts to staff numbers and beds, and, unless we address workforce shortage, many on the front line will leave the services.
We can all be immensely proud of our NHS, but if we want to celebrate its hundredth birthday, then we need to get to grips with waiting lists. We don't need a massive increase in funding, we need a massive increase in staffing, especially in primary care and social services.

Joyce Watson AC: Will you take an intervention?

Altaf Hussain AS: Yes.

Joyce Watson AC: I'm just a little bit puzzled about the fact that you think we can have an increase in training staff cost free, because you just said that we don't need any money. And I've just been looking at the Nuffield Trust chart of the funding for the NHS from its inception to now. What I noticed from that chart—and you can look it up; it's not our chart, it's not a Government chart—was that every time the Labour Party was in power, the spending went up, and every time the Conservative Party was in power, the spending went down. [Interruption.] It's there: read it. [Interruption.] You don't—

Samuel Kurtz MS: [Inaudible.] That is factually incorrect. [Interruption.] Factually incorrect.

Altaf Hussain AS: Great. Let's carry on. We don't need massive—[Interruption.]

Natasha Asghar AS: Go on, Altaf—keep going.

Altaf Hussain AS: So, let's come to the end of this. We don't need massive increases in funding. We need massive increases in staffing, especially in primary and social care. And thinking about prevention, we need preventative medicine in thinking about how to overcome our waiting lists. I hope that we can all work together across the political divide to secure the future of our NHS, which will forever be free at the point of its use.

Rhys ab Owen AS: I thank the Conservatives for tabling this very important debate. As Aneurin Bevan did 75 years ago, we must address the issues of our age. As Rhianon Passmore highlighted so powerfully, we don't need to go back many generations to see the tragedy that occurred when healthcare was not available for all. My grandfather’s sister, from Treorchy, died in the 1920s, well before her time, as a young girl, because her family could not afford the care she needed. That was the situation.
As other Members have said, we owe a huge debt to NHS workers. Natasha Asghar said that the consequence is not always what we want, but we can always draw comfort from the care and dedication our loved ones received. But, today, people are dying in terrible circumstances due to the lack of a national social care system—individuals and their families feeling isolated when living with serious, life-changing and terminal illnesses.
As Carolyn Thomas said, much has changed in the last 75 years, but, with an increasing need for care, it is crucial that we now look to reform the social care sector before it places further extreme pressure on the NHS. We have seen it within our own families and within our casework. Many hospital beds are being taken up by individuals who are medically ready to leave the hospital but can’t, because there is no funding for them to recover at home.
Unfortunately, many have to foot bills that they simply cannot afford. Only this morning, I received an e-mail at 7 a.m.—sorry, at 4 a.m.—from an individual who could not sleep due to his extreme anxiety. He told me in the e-mail that he needed to find £3,000 a week to pay for his care. Surely, where social care is essential, and, in fact, assists the NHS, people should not be expected to foot such large bills.
I have personally seen the difference in the treatment that relatives suffering from cancer have received, in contrast to those with degenerative diseases. An individual suffering from Alzheimer’s or Parkinson’s should have the support that they need and deserve. There should not be an additional price tag. It should be free at the point of delivery, just as Aneurin Bevan intended.

Rhys ab Owen AS: The care sector is the forgotten sector—underfunded, undervalued, and its workers underpaid. As members of the Senedd, we have to send a clear message today to families, to carers, to residents of care homes and to everyone who lives with illnesses and conditions such as MS, Parkinson’s and Alzheimer’s that we are listening to them, and we are willing and ready to take action for them. Too many Governments of different stripes have neglected this important issue of the care sector because it's seen as being too complex an issue. We have to take action now for the families who are represented here in the Senedd and for families the length and breadth of Wales. We have to remember this forgotten care sector.

Rhys ab Owen AS: While I am glad to see that the Government has committed to meeting a real living wage for social care workers, we can see, for many in this cost-of-living crisis, that this pay is simply insufficient. As the First Minister has said before, it's a good first step, but it's just that; it's not sustainable. It's all well and good to table this debate and to celebrate the NHS's birthday, but, without proper integration with the social care sector, it is difficult to see how on earth the NHS can survive for another 75 years. So, I call upon the Siambr to think bigger than just the NHS when it comes to the future of public services here in Wales. Think bigger, as that visionary from Tredegar did 75 years ago.I say that we should finish what Aneurin Bevan started all those years ago, to form a joint service that truly treats people from cradle to grave, not just a national health service, but also an integrated national social care service. Diolch yn fawr.

Ken Skates AC: I'm really grateful for the opportunity to speak in today's debate. Yesterday, we had an opportunity to celebrate the seventy-fifth anniversary of the NHS, but you can't be grateful enough for such a special service. So, it's great to be able to have an opportunity to wish 'pen-blwydd hapus' again.
It's fair to say that trust is at a crisis point across society, and, sadly, the NHS is suffering from the corrosive effects of cynicism, scepticism and attacks, and, unfortunately, we, as politicians, are contributing to it, invariably comparing the NHS across different parts of the UK for political gain. Today shouldn't be an exception—it really shouldn't. We should be celebrating the NHS every single day on the basis of it serving people across the United Kingdom, and I think it's fair to say, equally, that those who stand to gain the most from falling trust in the NHS are the American insurance companies that are hovering, salivating over the prospect of capitalising from any failures and any shift towards privatisation.
Llywydd, I represent a cross-border area and, today, I'd like to send my happy birthday wishes to the NHS not just in Wales, but also to those services, those facilities that people from Clwyd South and across north Wales and much of Wales, in fact, can access—those facilities in Chester, facilities like Alder Hey, the Christie and Gobowen—all of which provide outstanding services and treat thousands upon thousands of people every single day. I think we should all pledge to depoliticise the NHS as much as we possibly can and commit to working more collaboratively on those areas of challenge that are not unique to Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The Minister for health now to contribute to the debate—Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I'm really pleased to respond to this debate and, again, to take the opportunity to join colleagues across the Senedd in marking this, the seventy-fifth anniversary of the NHS, through supporting today's motion. Yesterday, I had the great pleasure of joining representatives from across NHS Wales at the multifaith service in Ely, in the first of several events to celebrate the wealth of talent and diversity in our workforce. As I mentioned in my oral statement to this Chamber yesterday, I'd again like to take the opportunity to place on record my sincere thanks to the heath and care workforce for their dedication and ongoing commitment. And I think, like many across the Senedd today, we should extend our thanks, celebrate with them on this very, very special occasion. Let's put aside our differences on this one day—on this one day. Let's celebrate together the incredible—incredible—results of 75 years.
Tomorrow, I'm going to join partners and healthcare providers at the Bevan Commission for an open and honest conversation about the future of our health services. I was very pleased that we were able to put a considerable amount of additional money on the table so that we have been able to settle the vast majority of the disputes, in particular with the people involved in 'Agenda for Change'. That was a really important point, because we do acknowledge and accept that these people deserve an extra reward.

Eluned Morgan AC: What is key is that the NHS in 1948 was free at the point of need and it remains free at the point of need today. I'm sure that, across the Chamber, we still would like to adhere to that very important principle. It's a principle that we've really got to recognise. We take these things for granted. I was reading just a few days ago that if you have a baby in the United States, it costs about £13,000. We take these things for granted at our peril. If you call an ambulance, it will cost about £350. If you go to the GP, the equivalent cost would be about £40 to £60. These are big numbers, and we all take it for granted, and I think it's really important that we understand that this is also a scarce resource. We've got to use it carefully, but know it is there when we need it.
Now, the second part of the motion that Sam, in particular, talked about, is general practice, and we know that that's been a very key pillar of the NHS over the past 75 years. That trusted relationship between GPs and their patients is absolutely invaluable in terms, in particular, of continuity of care. Now, we want to support GPs to be able to deliver this high-quality care for the next 75 years. As a result of last year's contract agreement, we invested £17 million in recognition of the vital role GPs and all their staff play in meeting the needs of patients. Our workforce reporting system tells us that the number of GPs in Wales remains relatively steady, and last year's data shows that we have slightly more GPs per 100,000 than they do in England. Over the past three years, our 'Train. Work. Live.' campaign has improved take-up of training posts in areas where GP recruitment has been more difficult in the past. We're consistently exceeding our targets of new trainee GPs, and we've agreed an extra £1.6 million of support in terms of core GP training numbers.
But BMA Cymru Wales have powerfully described the concerns of their members around the unrelenting demand for their services and the impact that that is having. These concerns are borne out by the data on activity in general medical services. Now, we know that around 1.5 million people in Wales, the equivalent of around half the total population in Wales, access GP services every month—every month, almost the equivalent of half the population. This is massive demand, and working at this—[Interruption.] If you don't mind, I'm not going to today, no. Working at this sustained pace and pressure will, undoubtedly, have a personal cost, and that is why we have committed to working with the profession to improve sustainability and address long-standing issues. In delivering our primary care model, we're taking steps to ensure more GP time is spent doing things that only they can do, and this model recognises that GPs shouldn't always be the first point of contact for treatment, and it draws on a range of other health professionals as part of a multidisciplinary practice team. I think it's really encouraging we're seeing an increase in the number of direct patient care staff employed in general practices alongside GPs. We've seen an increase of 18 per cent in the past two years.
We need to bring the public with us in reducing demand on GP services, and that's why our Help Us to Help You campaign has, I think, been successfully highlighting how to access different primary care providers. We've introduced the 111 Wales service, which answered around 70,000 calls in May. We've also increased the range of services community pharmacies can provide to patients. From this autumn, we'll have the new unified contract, which, again, will help free up more time for GPs to see their patients. Now, whilst taking these steps here and now, we also want to safeguard our future GP profession, working in partnership with the strategic programme for primary care, and a strategic workforce plan is being developed. Our strong social partnership approach here in Wales underpins our ongoing engagement with the BMA.
Turning to the amendment to the motion tabled by Plaid Cymru, I think it's worth remembering the words of Aneurin Bevan, that,
'No society can legitimately call itself civilised if a sick person is denied medical aid because of lack of means'.
It was an uncivilised society that didn't give the care to Rhianon's grandmother. That's not the kind of society that any of us want to live in. We're going to support the amendment and we agree that we need to protect the fundamental principles of our NHS, but we need to recognise that the current demand on our services is not sustainable with the model that we currently use. We've got an ageing population together with an increased number of people with long-term health conditions. That means that the pressure on the NHS will continue to grow.
Adopting new technological developments and new medicines is vital to improving patient care, but they come at a significant cost, requiring investment and new skills. If we are to protect our cherished NHS and the people within it, we all have a responsibility to take action to address the challenges we face, and there are going to be some really difficult choices ahead. The NHS can't address this challenge alone; it's going to require collaboration with partners to ensure an integrated approach delivered locally and sustainably—health and care. We must also encourage people to take much greater ownership of their own health so that they stay healthy for longer. We must apply our resources where they're needed most and we need to focus on prevention and on innovative ways to work and deal with these challenges. Whilst we should always consider and drive efficiency across the system, I'm clear that it is patient care, not profit, that will be central to the way in which we run our health services here in Wales.
We know that change is necessary, but we know how to do that change. It is all set out in our visionary document 'A Healthier Wales'. It is there for you to see—the programme, the plan is there. What we need to do is to drive delivery faster. I would encourage you, if you haven't read that document, to take time to read it. I read it again this morning just to make sure that we are heading in the right direction, just to make sure that we haven't forgotten anything. It is there in that document. We don't need a new vision; we need to deliver on the vision that we have. To do that, we're going to need some support—we're going to need support across this Chamber, we're going to need support from the public, we're going to need support from our healthcare workers. We all have a role to play in protecting our NHS and ensuring that it continues to provide that essential care for the people of Wales for the next 75 years.

James Evans to reply to the debate.

James Evans MS: Diolch, Presiding Officer, and it gives me great pleasure to respond and close this debate today on the motion put forward by my colleague Darren Millar. A lot of us in this Chamber have talked about how the NHS has touched them personally, and, from a personal perspective, my mother, my grandmother and a lot of my family and close friends worked, and work, in the NHS, and I'm sure I'm not the only Member across this Chamber that the NHS has touched very personally, and also with the help it has provided to all of us in a time of need.
Russell George opened our debate and actually talked about the challenges and the changes that the NHS has gone through over its 75 years, and the changes the Minister picked up as well in treatment and technologies, and also that we need to build consensus in this Chamber to address the challenges that the NHS does face. He mentioned also the BMA talking about the collapse of our GP services and our NHS in general, and that's something that we should all be very sobered about, and something that we all need to do is work collaboratively together to make sure that we can find solutions to actually address these problems, and, as others have said, not use it as a political football. He also mentioned the problems in dental services and the staffing issues currently facing our NHS, and also the long waiting lists which other people have talked about as well.
Huw Irranca made quite an important intervention, I think, without the politics in it, about the link between social care and health, and that's a massive area that we all need to really get on top of, and I'll touch on it and other contributions that were made.
Darren Millar got up and talked about the UK Government increasing money into the NHS, and that's something that, from our side of things, is very, very positive, because we need to make sure that the NHS is well funded to make sure we address the challenges that it faces.

James Evans MS: Mabon ap Gwynfor talked about how the NHS had helped him personally in his younger days and also about how the NHS has helped those people who just cannot afford treatment. He also mentioned the good link there is between quality housing and good overall health. And I think, as you said, that's something that gets missed in all of this. We need to make sure everybody in Wales has access to good-quality housing to make sure that their overall health is protected.
Sam Rowlands talked about his family, as I said earlier, about people working in the NHS and also highlighted some of the issues that we face here in Wales in our NHS. I'm not going to rehearse those, because they've been rehearsed by everybody and I'm a little bit short of time.
Rhianon got up and, quite passionately, talked about the vision of Aneurin Bevan and the future of our health service here in Wales and how precious the national health service is. But I did take quite an offence to some of your comments about people on the centre-right of politics, and I don't think some of those comments did this debate any justice. It was full of some quite sweeping statements, and I think some people could take some quite hard offence to some of the things that you said.
Natasha talked about how the staff in the NHS are committed to actually helping people, and your personal experience of that. And I think we all can be aware that when we've actually used those NHS services, that those dedicated staff come to you and do as much as they can to actually help improve your life and improve your life chances when they come to you, because they are all there to serve people and they do that because they actually care for the people who they go out and see.
Carolyn talked about Aneurin Bevan expanding housing and increasing living standards, and Mabon also picked up on that and its key delivery of making better healthcare, and I think that's something that's very, very important. You did talk about the 13 years of Conservative Government, and I've got quite used to you talking about that in this Chamber now, but I would just quite like to gently remind you that the Labour Party has been in power here for 25 years and it is the only Government that’s actually cut funding to the NHS. But I think you did say that we need to stop talking it down, and a lot of Members said about not talking the NHS down. We want to talk about the policies, but we also have to be very honest about the challenges that the NHS faces—you cannot bury your head in the sand over these issues, because if we do, those problems will only get worse and worse.
And Altaf, given your professional expertise in the NHS and as our resident consultant here in the Senedd, we’re all in very safe hands having you in this Chamber, but you talked about the pride and the privilege of all those people who work in our NHS. And you also talked about the solutions in terms of how we can address the problems facing it, and you also provided those solutions as well, and I think the Minister was listening to that and I know she probably takes your advice very, very keenly as well.
Rhys ab Owen talked about people suffering unnecessarily and that we do need to act, and he, again, mentioned the link between health and social care. And this was coming right through the debate and it's something we really do need to do: we need to help those families and individuals who are facing huge care costs and we need to do as much as we can to support those.
Ken talked about trust and we need to celebrate our NHS and not run it down, again. The NHS should not be a political football; it is something that is here to serve everybody and we should all work together as much as we can to try and improve our precious NHS.
The Minister opened, on her feet, and talked about our thanks to the NHS, and I’m sure she’s been thanking the NHS all week, and I know she continues to do that almost every day of the week for the fantastic work that they do and how we need to put our differences aside. You talked about the NHS being free at the point of need, and that, I’m sure, is something that all of us across this Chamber believe in and really do want to see going forward. And I think it’s very true what you said, Minister, about how we take the NHS for granted and we do need to use it very carefully sometimes. The amount of people who are accessing our GP services—over a million people a month are accessing GP services, and I think that’s quite a sobering number.
I think it’s very positive the work that we’ve all done in actually promoting our pharmacy services and other services to make sure that we reduce our pressures on our GPs, so that they’re actually seeing the people they need to see, rather than the people sitting in the waiting rooms who probably don’t need to be there. But we do need to do more work on reducing demand and that’s an onus on every single one of us in this Chamber to promote those alternative services as much as we can.
So, to close, because I think the Llywydd has been very generous on my time, I just want to thank every single person who has taken part in this debate today and their commitment to our NHS, its workforce and its people. It is an absolutely fantastic institution; they do a fabulous job for us day in, day out, 365 days a year. And without them, we’d be in a lot worse place. So, I’d like to say, 'Pen-blwydd hapus, NHS', and I’d encourage everybody to support our motion today.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. We will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

9. Voting Time

And that brings us to voting time, and unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will proceed directly to voting. Okay, we will move immediately to voting. The only item to be voted on this afternoon is item 8. This is the debate that we've just had, the Welsh Conservatives' debate on the national health service. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 36 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Item 8. Welsh Conservatives Debate - National Health Service. Motion without amendment: For: 15, Against: 36, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

That now brings us to a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 51, no abstentions, none against. Therefore, the amendment is agreed.

Item 8. Welsh Conservatives Debate - National Health Service. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan: For: 51, Against: 0, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

That brings us to a vote on the motion as amended by amendment 1.

Motion NDM8315as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Celebrates the 75th anniversary of the creation of the National Health Service.
2. Notes the British Medical Association’s warning that GP services and the Welsh National Health Service is in crisis and at risk of collapse.
3. Calls on the Welsh Government to secure the next 75 years of the National Health Service by meeting the needs of patients and staff and maintaining the core principle of being free at the point of need.
4. Believes that National Health Service privatisation is a fundamental threat to our health service and that providing healthcare free at the point of need should remain the principle at the heart of health care provision in Wales.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 51, no abstentions, none against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

Item 8. Welsh Conservatives Debate - National Health Service. Motion as amended: For: 51, Against: 0, Abstain: 0
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

That concludes voting, which now brings us to the short debate.

10. Short Debate: The military's footprint in Wales: The armed forces' importance to Wales’s identity

The short debate this afternoon is to be introduced by Samuel Kurtz. Samuel Kurtz to speak to the topic that he has chosen, as Members leave the Chamber quietly.

If Members could leave quietly; we're still to hold the short debate. Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I am pleased to bring this short debate to the Senedd floor today on the military's footprint in Wales, which allows us to explore the symbiotic relationship that exists between the armed forces and our Welsh identity. Before I start, I would like to acknowledge that, due to prior commitments at the Welsh veterans awards, the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership, who was very keen to respond to this debate, has had to offer her apologies. And I'm grateful to her for her interest in this debate and also to the Minister for Social Justice for replying to this debate as well.I have promised to give my colleagues Paul Davies, James Evans, Darren Millar and Alun Davies a minute of my time.
It was following a visit to the Castlemartin tank range in the far western corner of my constituency that I decided that I wanted to use my short debate time to highlight the key relationship that exists between His Majesty's armed forces and our nation. Overall, according to figures from 2019, there are 3,230 military and civilian personnel based in Wales, and over 60 Ministry of Defence establishments and bases, including reserve centres and training facilities. Using the latest figures, Wales provides 9 per cent of the UK's service personnel, however, only 2.5 per cent of those personnel are based here in Wales.
South Pembrokeshire has played a key role at many times during our military history. The last king to win his crown on the battlefield, Henry VII—Henry Tudor—was born at Pembroke castle in my constituency, and his long march north to defeat Richard III at Bosworth field started just on the other side of the Haven estuary, in Dale. The town of Pembroke Dock was built around the royal dockyard, which exploited the naturally deep harbour of the Haven estuary, to build not only fighting ships like HMS Warrior, but also a number of royal yachts and, in the first half of the twentieth century, was home to the RAF's Sunderland flying boat squadron. And I urge anyone who is visiting Pembrokeshire this summer to take an afternoon to visit the Pembroke Dock Heritage Centre at the garrison chapel at the dockyard, to learn more about these fantastic flying boats and the role that they played in the second world war. As we move out of the towns, we still see evidence of old, second world war RAF sites, such as Carew and Talbenny, and I haven't even touched on the many barracks that have been spread across over many centuries.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Turning to the current MOD footprint in the area, we have the defence training establishment at Penally, home to a gallery shooting range, which opened in 1860 to provide musketry training following the Crimean war, and has also had trenches dug to enable practice ahead of trench warfare that took place in the great war in northern France. Air defence range Manorbier operates for 100 days a year, testing surface-to-air missiles, and it was the first in the UK, in 2005, to be suitable for night-vision technology use. It currently plays an important training role for some present conflicts. Moving just across the border into Carmarthenshire is MOD Pendine, operated by QinetiQ for weapons training, testing and evaluation, and operates both land, shoreline and sea.
Finally, we have what I would like to think of as the jewel in the crown of MOD establishments, the Castlemartin training area. Established 85 years ago, leading up to the second world war, covering 2,400 acres of the former Cawdor estate on the Angle peninsula, it is fully located within the Pembrokeshire coast national park. Castlemartin is home to one of two armoured fighting vehicle ranges in the UK, with direct live-firing gunnery exercises and armoured vehicle manoeuvres, and, depending on the type of weaponry used, the exclusion zone reaches some 12 nautical miles into the Celtic sea. Regiments come from all over the country and the world to use its facilities, and time on the site is booked many years in advance, just showing its importance. But local people in Pembrokeshire have become accustomed to seeing convoys of tanks being transported on the back of flatbed lorries to the range, and the rumble of gunfire often fills the air around south Pembrokeshire. The site is also home to some of the latest Challenger II tank simulators, enabling soldiers to familiarise themselves with some of the most modern generation of military vehicles. I was pleased to learn on my visit how our NATO allies are able to access the site, following in the footsteps of the German armoured units who called the range home for over 30 years up until 1996.
This relationship between the German army, who arrived around 16 years after the end of the second world war, and who stayed until the last decade of the century, is something that piques my interest, given my heritage. It was, somewhat naturally, a relationship that started with a degree of suspicion and concern, but it ended with the German army proudly marching through Pembroke and receiving the freedom of the town, having become a much valued and loved part of the local community. I was reminded of an anecdote when the Germans arrived to take up situ in the barracks, that their tanks were driven through Pembroke town, Pembroke Dock and Pembroke town, and I'm sure there were quite a few worried faces in Pembroke, seeing German tanks on the shore in west Wales, but they really became a loved part of the community there.
The Castlemartin facility is also a great example of how the MOD works to protect our environment. As I've already commented, the range lies within the Pembrokeshire coast national park, and they work together, hand in glove, to maintain the unique landscape, flora and fauna that the peninsula is home to. Indeed, back in 2011, a new route for the coast path was opened in agreement with the MOD, to take the walker off a country lane and across a new path, which did not interfere with the operations of the site, but allowed walkers to enjoy the vast and fantastic views of that part of the world.
Turning to those who serve our nation with pride, the 2021 census highlighted that around 115,000 people in Wales had previously served in the armed forces—around 4.5 per cent of the population. This compares to 3.8 per cent of the English population, again showing how much Wales punches above its weight. The first Veterans' Commissioner for Wales, Colonel James Phillips, a constituent of mine, is a great advocate for our former service personnel. And it would be remiss of me to speak about military veterans without mentioning the excellent VC Gallery, founded by ex-serviceman Barry John MBE, based in Pembrokeshire and helping service veterans and the wider community get involved with art projects to help improve their well-being, mental health, and quality of life.
The history and legacy that my corner of Wales has played in the success of our nation's military is impressive, and I hope that it will continue to play an important role for many years to come. I, like all of us in this Chamber, am proud of our armed forces. In a world where the word 'hero' is often overused, our men and women in uniform are its truest definition. They represent our nation and crown with honour. I hope that my contribution today has helped to reinforce the important role that the military has played in shaping the identity of Wales, and maybe, too, how Wales has helped shape its identity. I look forward to hearing the contributions of my colleagues, and to the response from the Minister. Diolch yn fawr.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Paul Davies AC: I thank Sam Kurtz for giving me a minute of his time. The armed forces have long had a hugely significant presence in Pembrokeshire, and I'm very proud to represent a constituency that is home to the Cawdor Barracks. Cawdor Barracks, for those of you who are unfamiliar with it, is located just a few miles from St David's, and is home to the 14 Signal Regiment, which is the British army's electronic warfare unit. The regiment has had an increasingly important role within the armed forces, and they are a vital part of Pembrokeshire's society. And so it's important that we recognise the role that this regiment and, indeed, other regiments across Wales play in protecting our nation.
It won't surprise Members that I will also take this opportunity to urge the Welsh Government to continue to do more to protect Wales's war memorials. I believe that it's the very least we can do to pay our respects to those who have paid the ultimate price for our freedoms. And it also sends a message to those serving in our armed forces today, whether that's those serving in the 14 Signal Regiment or elsewhere. It sends a message that we in Wales recognise and respect the work that they do to keep us safe. We owe it to our fallen servicemen and servicewomen for the sacrifices they have made, and we owe it to our current servicemen and servicewomen, like those at Cawdor Barracks, too.

James Evans MS: I'd like to thank Sam Kurtz for bringing forward this short debate today. This debate has given me the opportunity to raise the profile of the Ministry of Defence estate in my constituency of Brecon and Radnorshire. There's the barracks in Brecon that was saved from closure by our MP, Fay Jones. That is the home of the British army in Wales, and long may that continue. Also, there's the training camp in Sennybridge and the infantry battle school in Brecon, providing fantastic opportunities for our armed forces to come and train in my constituency. And it's also the home of the Cambrian patrol. The Member who's brought forward this short debate today, his actual MP, Simon Hart, took part in the Cambrian patrol, and lots of our armed forces right across the country have come through my constituency. The military presence in my home is very, very important to our local community, our local economy, and to the fabric of my constituency. So, long may that continue, and thank you very much to all our armed forces across the country.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you to Sam Kurtz for bringing forward this important debate. As the Chair of the cross-party group, it always amazes me to see the investment that the UK Government is making in defence here in Wales, but, of course, we could always do with more. One of the wonderful things that we see in north Wales, of course, is RAF Valley, which trains all of the fighter jet pilots for the RAF, and not just the fighter jet pilots for our RAF, but also for other air forces too. But of this significant investment that we have in our defence budget, we do need to make sure that more of that is flowing into businesses here in Wales, so that we can actually help to generate some more income for the Welsh economy. I would like to know, in the Government's response to this debate today, what the Welsh Government is doing to actually try to attract more investment from defence procurement spending, so that Wales can benefit in its economy in the way that it ought to.

Alun Davies AC: I'll add my gratitude to Samuel Kurtz for tabling this debate this afternoon. It is a fact, of course, that something like 12 per cent of all of our armed forces are from Wales. It is important that we see this reflected in our own country, and in the bases that are in Wales. We don't see that at the moment. We don't see sufficient serving personnel actually based in this country. What I'd like to ask the Minister in her response to this debate is how she will work with the MOD to ensure that there are more serving personnel based in Wales. The threats to the barracks in Brecon were profoundly disappointing, and that shouldn't have happened. It wouldn't have happened in Scotland, and it shouldn't happen again. But what we need to be able to do is to ensure that the Welsh and United Kingdom Governments are working together to ensure that there's a firm base strategy in place to ensure that the country of Wales plays the same role as the people of Wales already do in serving in our armed forces and providing the support that this Government can to ensure that that happens in the future.

I call on the Minister for Social Justice to reply to the debate—Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank Sam Kurtz for bringing forward this topic for debate, and also thank our colleagues who have made contributions? As you said, Sam Kurtz, this is a debate the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership would very much liked to have attended and spoken at and responded to, but, as you say, she's importantly representing the Welsh Government tonight at the Welsh veterans awards. But I'm very pleased, as Minister for Social Justice, to be here to respond to this important debate.
Many of you will have attended Armed Forces Day, and I do use this debate to congratulate all who were involved on that day. For most parts of Wales, it was a very hot but superb day of activity. I'm going to focus on Newport, which was the local authority that hosted and was supported so ably by our armed forces veterans. And the Wales Airshow, of course, which took place last weekend, also demonstrated the support amongst the public for our armed forces community. I'm sure the people of north Wales will be out in force in Rhyl in August as well.
Our armed forces are a key part—as everyone has said, but Sam, principally, in terms of your contribution today in this important debate—of the fabric of Wales, and they have helped shape our history and our national identity, as you said. They're also a constant and very welcome presence at many events across Wales. The Welsh public always gives them the warmest of Welsh welcomes. Sam, and, indeed, Paul Davies, you've highlighted the military history of Pembrokeshire very eloquently, including the current MOD defence establishment operating there. Of course, they're playing a huge role not just in Pembrokeshire, but for Wales, UK and the world. And also, and I think importantly, as many of you have said, there are opportunities in Pembrokeshire, and across Wales, to view the history in museums, many voluntary led, as well as local authority supporters, and those are very important. Paul Davies mentioned the 14 Signal Regiment at Brawdy barracks. Also, I think you mentioned the veterans work in Pembrokeshire as well. But we have to recognise that this is where Wales has traditionally provided a more than proportionate contribution of its men and women to serve in the armed forces—over 6 per cent of the armed forces, from 5 per cent of the UK population.
I'm just going to select an example of the military footprint from each of our three armed services, starting with the Royal Air Force. Our Welsh servicemen and servicewomen have made a huge contribution to the history and achievements of the UK armed forces over many years. We saw a great example of that when we welcomed the Wales and the Battle of Britain exhibition here to the Senedd last November. As we heard about the lives of the 68 Welsh aircrew who fought in the battle of Britain, it was certainly poignant to reflect on their stories at an event held here in the Senedd, the heart of modern-day Welsh democracy, and remember the contribution they made to preserving our democracy and freedom at a time when these very things were at great threat right the way across Europe and beyond.
St Athan and the surrounding former airfields of the Vale of Glamorgan have played a major part in my own constituency, and as a constituency Senedd Member, I understand how servicepeople and their families contribute to their local communities. There will undoubtedly be changes at St Athan later this year, with the closure of the RAF's No. 4 School of Technical Training, but it's good to note that the RAF presence will remain with the Universities of Wales Air Squadron still flying from the site, and with the RAF also having a reserve squadron in Cardiff and an adventure training centre at Crickhowell.
We're also delighted—and RAF Valley has been mentioned, of course—that RAF Valley on Ynys Môn continues to go from strength to strength, with an assured long-term future providing many hundreds of civilian jobs. And it is civilian jobs as well as those in the forces, including excellent apprenticeship schemes; it truly is a jewel in the crown. And, in this increasingly dangerous world that we live in, we should all be proud that all the RAF's fighter pilots who are currently securing NATO air space in central Europe were all trained here in Wales—an excellent example of how Wales continues to play a vital part in the UK's security.
Turning to the army in Wales, our largest presence in terms of numbers—or boots on the ground, as it were, if we're talking footprints—the army's home in Wales is in Brecon. And Brecon, or nearby Sennybridge, which we've also mentioned, is the spiritual home of the infantry soldier, through the town's long links—first as the former headquarters to the 24th Regiment of Foot. More recently, Brecon has been home to the school of infantry, where junior non-commissioned officers and young officers complete their tactical battle training in the testing conditions of Sennybridge training area, which I'm sure you will be aware of, James Evans and colleagues. The preservation of Brecon barracks as the headquarters for the 160th (Welsh) Brigade was a major win for Wales from the UK Government's integrated review. And integration is something we see through the service families in Brecon, one of the few locations in the UK where schoolchildren can offer greetings in Welsh, Gurkhali and English.
From historic Brecon, I move to Cardiff Bay and the very modern HMS Cambria, our major Royal Navy presence in Wales, and our near neighbour here in the Senedd. I'm sure all here today have been there. I know the navy and marines in Wales have been working on their footprint and their reach into local communities. I'm pleased to highlight their recent work with the Muslim Council of Wales, whose awards ceremony the First Minister was able to attend earlier in the year. The iLEAD programme was about extending the self-confidence and potential of young Muslims as future leaders, and HMS Cambria provided a base for activities and its motivational instructors.
Darren Millar raised the point about the economic importance of the military presence in Wales. And through relations with the armed services here, and inter-governmentally with the MOD, this is something we work to influence. We see the prospect of a new barracks at Caerwent as a significant development for Wales, and have registered our interest with the Ministry of Defence that planning for such significant spend should consider local supply chains and community benefits. We're in close contact with the MOD over plans for the future of Brawdy after 14 Signal Regiment departs.
Can I just finally recognise the role of the Reserve Forces' and Cadets' Association, managing 399 buildings over 158 sites in Wales, where our 2,171 reservists, our 4,685 cadets and their 1,476 adult volunteers operate from? We have a lot to thank for the relationships that we've developed. And I just want to finally say—and it's in response, partly, to Alun Davies as well—that the First Minister met Brigadier Nick Thomas earlier today, and the brigadier said that his vision is for Wales to be the best place for a soldier to serve and a veteran to live. The First Minister was very supportive of that, and he spoke of the importance of celebrating the skills service leavers bring to Wales, and that is crucially important.
In conclusion, I say thank you to Sam Kurtz for bringing this debate today, and thank you as well—all of you, of course, have been and will be ambassadors for Wales and for our armed forces, because of the support that you have. The armed forces remain so important to Wales's identity, and we stand with them as always.

Thank you very much. That brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:13.

QNR

Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

Jack Sargeant: What assessment has the Minister made of the benefits to future generations of Welsh public sector pension funds disinvesting from fossil fuels?

Julie James: Responsibility for local government pension scheme is not devolved. However, the Welsh Government recognises that investment funds such as the LGPS can play an important role in tackling climate change. We will continue to work with those with responsibility for pension funds to encourage economically and environmentally sustainable investments.

Peter Fox: What action is the Welsh Government taking to enable the decarbonisation of Welsh infrastructure?

Julie James: The 'Wales Infrastructure Investment Strategy' provides a framework for our infrastructure investments, including decarbonising social housing, upgrading public and active travel networks and flood risk management interventions. Some areas, including rail infrastructure, remain the responsibility of the UK Government. Their appalling record on electrification speaks for itself.

Altaf Hussain: What discussions has the Minister had with local authorities regarding the decarbonisation of their vehicle fleets?

Julie James: The Minister for Finance and Local Government and I regularly discuss climate change with local authorities, including the decarbonisation of their fleet.

Natasha Asghar: What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Climate Change regarding the impact that Wales's public transport network is having on children accessing education?

Julie James: Accessibility is a key pillar of our Wales transport strategy. We’re aiming to create a public transport system with ambitious standards on equality, accessibility and human rights, which will meet the needs of people with learning disabilities and everyone who travels in Wales.